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First interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
First interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
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Part one of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (February 24, 2008)
Emmanuel Makgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, during an oral history interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
Part two of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (February 25, 2008)
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Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-06-10
Location of interview: Maandagshoek, Limpopo
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Emmanuel Mokgoga
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_MAA_MokgogaEmmanuel_20070610
INTERVIEW WITH EMMANUEL MOKGOGA
DM: Ok can you please tell us your name and how long you have been in this community and basically what is it that you have been doing in the last three years?
EM: My name is Emmanuel Mokgoga I am living in this community of Maandagshoek and I am the leader of this community. I am the spokesperson of this community. I am leading them in the struggle against the platinum mines in our area, and we have started this strike for about five years.
DM: What is the name of the organisation that you are a leader of?
EM: The name of the organisation is the Maandagshoek Development Committee.
DM: Ok Emmanuel what we are going to do first is to take some time, we want to go back a bit about your own life, ja, can you tell us a bit about growing up in this community? And what was it was like in those days back in the 70s and 80s?
EM: I was born in 1978 and I was born in Vereeneging in the Free State and I started school at Vereeneging until Standard 2 and I came back to Maandagshoek and when I come here it was that time when the old government it was still oppressing black people especially at the rural areas. So when I come here my brothers and sisters there were up and down to see that democracy is coming to our country so in 70s and 80s I started there to learn about the struggle to see how our parents and how our brothers here have been tortured and how they were strong. So I started to learn about these issues of strike.
DM: And were you involved as a child, as a young child in any political activities?
EM: Yes I still remember things especially in 1988 somewhere there I was there as ... I can't remember how old I was by that time but I was involved and then I was supporting our brothers even if they were chasing me saying I'm still young I must go sleep and then I must sit in the yard but I was supporting them so I'm really saying that I started long ago this issue of strike.
DM: Did you, when you were a student did you belong to any organisation?
EM: No, I did not belong to any organisation but I was supporting the political parties that were singing we want free in South Africa. So I was also supporting that. Even also today I am not following any political party but I'm supporting the political parties who are still saying we want freedom in our country because we are not free yet in our country. If you can see now people they are still tortured, people they are still getting arrested unnecessary, people they are still getting killed, there is still, there is no jobs for our people so people who are on top are like to say there is democracy in our country which is that democracy is just that there at their families. So we as black people especially at the rural areas and we don't see that democracy taking place in our country.
DM: From the early 1990s, when things started changing ... the liberation movements were unbanned, you were probably 13/14 years old at that point?
EM: Yes.
DM: What do you remember about that period most at the time when Mandela was released, the talks started happening?
EM: Before and after Mandela was released I was hoping that all South Africa they would get better because after Mandela he was released in jail he just walked outside. I don't know he was still at Cape Town at the (inaudible) ... and then raises his hand and says long walk to freedom and then the people they were happy. And then when Mandela comes to Cape Town for the first time talks in the Cape Town says South Africa is for all South Africans blacks, individuals and white, coloured and everybody whom is living in this country. I was hoping that that we will get better life for all South Africans as the former president has said.
AV: So for your family at that time - although you were still young - what was the biggest problem in the house, the biggest changes for your household before the ANC took over?
EM: What do you mean?
AV: Like you know the things that your father worried about at night or your mother worried at night?
EM: My father when he was still alive at that time, he was worried about his children when they are going to the street because at that time the people they were getting shots like the issue of Sebokeng, Sharpville and Soweto. People they were just dying unnecessary so my father and my mother also they were worried my brothers and sisters when they were out maybe they may be getting arrested, so they were worried about that and he encouraged us to go to school.
DM: So when did you move here to Maandagshoek, what year did you come here because you said you were born in Vereeniging and then you moved here. How old were you?
EM: I was 10 years old.
DM: It was about late 1980s that you came here?
EM: Yes.
DM: This area was a homeland part of Lebowa right?
EM: The former land of North Sekhukhune land.
DM: Sekhukhune land?
EM: Yes.
DM: That was governed by the homeland authority?
EM: Yes.
DM: And so when you come here as child or a 10 years old/ 11 years what do you, how did you move from Vereeniging in that area there what was it like the homeland in those days, how were things?
EM: Things it was still at the lower, the people they were still respecting the culture of Bapedi. The people they were still respecting the traditional leaders and also the traditional leaders they were respecting the people because they understand that they are at that position because of the people. So they are respecting the people when they were ploughing and doing things according to tradition of the people of Bapedi.
DM: Once things started changing, how was it when the homeland system started going away, how would you describe those times in terms of the fact they had this thing about traditional leaders, cultural aspects when things were moving and shifting? Ok what I was asking was when things started politically changing and the homelands were beginning to (fall) away what effects were there politically ... what do you think they had on this community, the things that you were talking about, the role of the traditional leaders, the cultural aspects of things in this community. Did they make a big difference or did they make no difference at all - those political shifts?
EM: Ja, they did make difference but that difference is not because they have supports the culture , they have killed the culture of the Bapedi nation because after 1994 the people take power in the government to lead certain things in the government. We were hoping that they will support our culture, they will support black in everything that they want to do in this country but things is not like that and instead of supporting our culture (they are) supporting the old government by empowering the capitalist in our country. We select them as we know that they are communism but when they sitting at that position they started to capitalize instead of supporting us, so now we don't know anything but our culture.
DM: Can you just explain when you say our culture what do you mean by that when you say our culture as Bapedi?
EM: Our culture, when we are usually when we are roughly 20 I mean 10/12/13/14 we have to go to circumcision as a boys and the women also. The girls when they are 12/13/14 they have to go to the circumcision and then after we come to the circumcisions we must get something, presents from our parents that shows that we not children anymore we are men. So we can carry other responsibility from our family and also to the girls is just like that. And mostly when we are from the circumcision if your father is having cattle or goats he must give you some or one of that and you take responsibility for that. So, then we were also ploughing, if my father have a big farm he must give a hectare and then I can be trustful, to be responsible, for that is our culture that is working.
DM: Ok and how is it that, can you make the connection between the loss of that culture as it begun to be lost is that what you are saying and the changes that were beginning or no changes ... I mean the things you talked about which didn't seem they were going to support, the new government was not going to support people, particularly black people in the rural areas like this place?
EM: What do you want me to say?
DM: I'm asking you the connection between the loss of culture, how did the loss of culture happen? How is that connected with the changes that happened in the 1990s?
EM: There is no connection, there is no difference. There is no connection because we lost our culture because of the new government. And we did enjoy our culture by the apartheid government after that new government taking chance, we lost our culture.
AV: What did they do so that you lost your culture, what was different in the apartheid era that made a difference?
EM: The apartheid government they were respecting our culture. The people they were going to the circumcision, ploughing the way they want. Now if you can check the government is taking our land without consulting with the owner of the land, and if you can check now the people they are killing other people without reason, they would be released in jail without the reason. And by that time, by that apartheid issue, apartheid time you can't just killing the people without the police asking you the reason why you've killed the people. So at least by that time even if our black people they were oppressed by that time but they were enjoying their culture with other people who are living in this country. Now we are not enjoying our culture. When you are a leader in this country, let's say you are a Zulu, or Xhosa or a Pedi. If I am a Xhosa I'm leading the South Africans the people they are not going to be happy they are going to say because I'm a Xhosa I'm not supposed to lead the South African, I'm not supposed to lead the Zulu because I'm a Xhosa, I'm not supposed to lead the Pedi because I'm a Xhosa, which is totally wrong, you see. So we must respect the people who are living in this country.
DM: After 1994, when 1994 happened, when the first election April 27 happened, were you, at that point, old enough to vote?
EM: Yes I was 19.
DM: So you voted in that election?
EM: I didn't vote at first democracy election in this, I didn't vote, I voted at for the second election when we were voting for the second president Thabo Mbeki.
DM: Ok and the reason why you didn't vote was because of just practical reasons?
EM: At the first as far as I still remember it was the problem of the ID.
DM: You got excited when Mandela got released and everything but in 1994 was start of the moment for a lot of people you know, I think of ... they were celebrating. What do you remember most about that day, that time period, by then 1994?
EM: Everybody was happy and I was happy to the first black president in our country and to see the first democracy for elections in our country, so everybody was happy.
AV: When this happened what were you doing, were you in or out of school?
EM: When this....
AV: Ja during the 1994, when the 1994 elections took place?
EM: Yes I was at school at that moment.
AV: What standard?
EM: I was in ... because I did fail twice but I think I was in standard 8 at that moment.
AV: Ok and in the school what were other people talking about in terms of the elections?
EM: Yes, the people they where happy because it was the first elections in our country. And then most of people they were talking about Doctor Nelson Mandela especially the blacks at the school. They were saying they were going to vote for the first black president President Doctor Nelson Mandela. So it was not surprise for me to him winning the elections. And they were about his release from jail and they talking about the death of Chris Hani because if you can see the death of Chris Hani makes the people to worry to put their attention at the politics after the death of Chris Hani because after the death of Chris Hani people come up and saying he was hero, he was a fighter, he supposed to becoming president before Mandela and then people started, students at school started to talk about Mandela being released and the death of Chris Hani and the new elections the first new elections in our country.
AV: When Chris Hani died you know in Johannesburg there were a lot of marches ...did anything happen here?
EM: What happened in the rural I was not aware myself that Chris Hani he lost his life last night or last day. My parents send me to the shops to buy breads. When I arrived the shops I told one who was helping me that I need bread, there is no bread because Chris Hani he lost his life. I asked myself who was Chris Hani? I was saying maybe he was talking about the Christians but realised no Chris Hani, the guy who fight for the country and I said why there is no bread because Chris Hani died. He said the bakery didn't deliver the bread so there is no one who was working at this moment to make breads so there is no in any shops here, so that is when I sat down and then, immediately sit down with other comrades in the shop and talk about his death, how his death comes.
AV: And at the high school where you were studying, was there an organisation like COSAS or any of those student organisations here?
EM: Yes, but it was not COSAS, it was just the ... I can't remember but there were representatives at the school. And we were fighting against at school we were demanding better life, better education. And the, usually there at school there were, you see if you do wrong they have to give you smash out, give you some lashes, we were against that as students at school but I was just supporting them toyi - toying.
AV: And on those three days of elections, what was happening not in the school but the rest of the area? Were there rallies?
EM: Were there ...?
AV: Like rallies or mass meetings?
EM: Yes, on that three days the people they just going to the vote station to vote. So and we asking one another did you vote for this and this so we were just going in groups and then we were happy our fathers, our brothers they were voting.
AV: And when the ... do you remember the inauguration?
EM: Inauguration, yes.
AV: Was there any kind of celebration here or special kinds of government sponsored events here in Mandagshook?
EM: No, inauguration time let me say when we were fighting the old government we were just gathering around here at Maandagshoek and singing, we were saying siyaya e Pitori but we were not going to Pretoria. We were just around here and then celebrating showing that we are not happy and the police they were coming beating us, arresting us, torturing us. And then at that time there was a pastor at the hospital that side, he was a white guy, we were going there and the doctors who were working at the hospital, we were just going there and fighting with that people but we were saying we are to Pretoria, we would be fighting this government. So by that inauguration time we were just here and murmuring about the inauguration time saying this and this. We were just around; there was no big meeting from the government or everything else, no.
DM: I want to ask you, I mean you are ok, the changes in the government takes place, Mandela becoming the President, the ANC coming to power, you graduate from what, did you get your degree from high school, did you graduate from high school?
EM: I failed Std 10.
DM: So when did you ... after 1994 how did things shift in the community in terms of you know, everybody was happy Mandela is the president and everything else? Try to give us that sense of 1995/6/7 period, three years after. Ok, now the changes are made, what then happened, how did people feel about the new situation?
EM: After 1994/95 we were hoping a better life as I said just now to you. And we were hoping that it would be great thing if we South Africans can be united. When I'm talking about united I'm talking about the police, the government, the communities and the president and everybody be united and to say one thing. But is not like the way hoping, we were saying that we will get jobs, we will get free things like they were saying when they want us to vote for them. We were saying we would get free bursaries, we would go to school free, we will get water free because we have fight for this democracy. And then fail also to be free in this country but things at this moment at this time is not the way we were wishing.
DM: Now during ... after what was the main, let's say 1994/95 those years there, what was the main activity in the community in terms of what is small scale farming, what is it, I know there were mines around but these mines was not here yet were they?
EM: Ja.
DM: What where most people doing in this community making a living?
EM: Most of the people here, and most of the people they were looking after their cattle. And if you were farming the cattle also you were a rich guy in this village of Maandagshoek because there were, the people there suffering because there were no jobs around here, so they were the main thing that they were doing they were ploughing "mabele" mealie and ploughing pumpkin and sugar canes and spinach also and other things that will make them survive. They were selling these things; they were using those things to eat sometimes. And they were getting the milk from the cows, from the goats, they were getting meat from the pigs that they were having in their yards because there was no jobs. So and then if you pass Std 10 and then you want to go to school or at the school they want the money for the school funds they were selling cows somewhere and take the money to pay school fees for you. And most of the people who are the resident today, who are leading the community they have survived because of that.
DM: Landowners?
EM: Yes, their children have survived.
DM: Now when you are saying people having land, I have interest ... was it individual ownership or did it come under collective tribal trust or what was it like ... how is land in this community divided, did you have a tribal authority?
EM: No.
DM: Who decided whose land that is?
EM: The Chief, the tribal authority is deciding. Like you, if you want to become part of this community, the citizen of this community you go to the chief and then he will show you the place were you are going to stay. And he is also going to show you the places where you are going to plough.
AV: Just back a little bit. Emmanuel, you were in Std 8 in 1994, so you were in school till 1996?
EM: Ja.
AV: Were there any changes in the school in those three years? When you were still in school?
EM: The changes concerning?
AV: Like for instance you said corporal punishment of something that you were protesting against as the SRC?
EM: Ja.
AV: What did that, was that done?
EM: Yes, one there was a trip to Polokwane and then I was the part of that because I was playing soccer so we were going there to play the games. So at that time I was drinking liquor and then I was drunk and I swear at the teacher at the school at that moment because we were so drunk. I told them this and this and this after they reported me to my parents and they write a letter to my parents so that they must go to the school and when they arrived my younger father said to the teachers, he agreed that I did the mistake but the government is not allowing them to give me "Sjambok", so he don't know what he can tell them to do about me. So that thing comes to me and say keeps to my mind that no, this issue of giving people "Sjambok" and beating them is out of the school because even our parents they are aware what is happening.
AV: But in terms of other things like text books, teachers ... were there more schools being built?
EM: Still even after 1994?
EM: Yes, even after 1994 even now, they are still sharing the textbooks, they are still sharing the classroom, they are still sharing lot of things at the school. There is not enough desks at the school.
AV: You know just speaking to you, I mean you are by far like many of the people that we have spoken to ... someone who is very intelligent you know, articulate I mean certainly a strong leader, What happened in school ... how come you didn't make a matric?
EM: Eee... Broer I have run from school to Sasolburg to work. My father he was working in Vereeniging just next to Sasolburg and my broer Gabriel was working in Sasolburg. I was a fighter when I was still a student because still drinking. And then I decided that from myself that because of the teachers they are hitting me now, so they hate me and parents are not happy to the things that I'm doing now and then I got the injury here, I was fighting with brothers at that time, and I'm just decided that I'm going to work and then I went to Sasolburg to my brother. And then they said to me I must go to school. I said I want to work. My sister she is a nurse, she is staying at Bracketesier just next to Burgersfort, she said to me I must go to school the way I like she will take the responsibility, she will pay it for me but I ignored her, I didn't go to the school and then I went to Sasolburg to work.
AV: I wanted to ask about, just before more of the other stuff, about drinking and how you started drinking?
EM: Hmm, I can't tell how I stated drinking beer but I just started with my friends especially we were enjoying drinking when we were taking trips at the school. So were coming together and donate something and buying some case of beers.
AV: And this is mainly scholars?
EM: Ja.
AV: So there was a lot of drinking in the school?
EM: Ja there was a lot of drinking in the school during the trips games.
AV: When you went to work, where did you go and work?
EM: At Sasolburg at the company called Homenear fertilizers, so they were doing a fertilizer and they were also making the production called PPM, this is like Majarteen at the mine they are using it to the dynamites, a small whites I was assisting the operators, I was loading that in the truck when they were loading to the mine for the explosions.
AV: And while you were working there where were you living?
EM: I was living in Sasolburg at Zamdela. There was a flat where my brother he was staying so I was staying together with him.
AV: Is that where you became involved in the ...?
EM: Broer, when I started to work it was my first time to meet with the white people, with Xhosa, with other different people at the same place. I started by working first and I was still afraid to talk but usually myself I hate the people who think they are smart or wise than other people especially the way they were treating the blacks, the way they were treating me, I was not happy about that and I can also, I can also say I thank they have treated me because I started to learn how the people they were tortured at the apartheid era. So when the time goes I was just working as the labourer and I was getting peanuts, the white people, most of them they were supervisors, they not working like black people. Black people they were picking up 50 bags of production into the trucks and the white people they were just in the office even if they don't have the education or the rights authority to do that because of their colour they were supervising us, they were doing what they want in the company.
AV: How did you express the political consciousness, how did you know that this is wrong ... but you said you started learning yourself ... what did you do?
EM: Yes, as I'm saying to you I can thank the way they have treated me because I remember there is a white guy who was driving the fork-lift and they were loading the production in the containers and he said to me he is going to the office he is coming back, I must just driving the fork-lift the production and when he came the fork-lift stuck, there was soil somewhere there stuck and say to me just kyk hier die kaffier hoe ry die fork-lift nou het ge stuck, hal uit gaan maak, and I was angry and I told that I'm not happy the way he is calling me and I would report him but at that time even if I can report him there is nothing which is going to happen to him. And we goes like that, we goes and until we join the union called SEPAWU under COSATU is where I was elected to be Shopsteward by the workers. And I know the reason why they have elected me to be Shopsteward is because I was fully agreed to say we are tortured, we are not respected by our employers, by the white people in the company. And then I was talking free to the other comrades that gentlemen we must join the union we must listen to the radio how the people they are fighting against the bad employment from the companies. So we must fight for our rights, we are not free yet, we are getting peanuts. At that time I started to work people they were still getting R4.50 per hour, even now they are still struggling to get R7/8 but we want a better life for all and automatically us. I blame our government because if you can check all the people who are working in the big companies at Sasolburg, Rustenburg, in the mine ... most of them they are working for the temporarily, they are working for the private companies. When we are talking about private company if I'm the owner of the private company I employ you now and dismiss you now because I've got my own power in that company. So from that time the workers started to know that I can be a good leader, I can represent them. So I was not shy to speak to the white people, to tell them in the meeting that the way you are treating us is bad.
AV: And this is the same place you started working?
EM: Yes.
AV: How long did you work there?
EM: I worked for them six years.
AV: So you started in 1996?
EM: Ja.
AV: When did you become SEPAWU and when did SEPAWU start working with workers?
EM: I started working in 1996 and I was dismissed in 2005, is that nine years?
DM: Nine years?
EM: I was dismissed on the 10th of September.
AV: When did you join SEPAWU?
EM: I joined SEPAWU after 2001.
AV: Alright, from 1996 to 2001 you were not unionized, there was no union?
EM: Union, it was there, it was there we were already joining the union but in, on the end of 2000, it was December when I elected to be a Shopsteward and I started to work with the comrades.
DM: I want to get a sense, during that time that was late 1995/96 when you started working there, how did you change in the relationship between you and the community your family, people here that you left? Because many young people like yourself they are going to work, they are trying to get jobs far away, how was that for you to be away from family the place where you considered to be home?
EM: It was difficult broer because I am the last born in this family, so usually I have to be responsible for my parents when I'm the last born especially when I'm the boy. I have to be responsible for my mother and my father. And it was difficult for me because she was alone, my brothers they were still staying with her but they were doing their own things to showing that they were growing up they must build their own houses. So I was feeling shame for my mom and saying no I have to go to be next to my mother or I have to get married for a wife whose going be together with my mom. So it was difficult for me, it was difficult because I was coming home after two months, it was depending when I was off. Sometimes if I supposed to be not going to be off because you'll be taking sick note and I have to go work for your time.
AV: So when you weren't here your brother and your mother were staying here, where was food coming from and I mean so forth? How was she surviving?
EM: Broer we were lucky. We were lucky because our father was working before, he died in 1993 so he was working in Makhaflini, there was a place called Makhaflini, he was a chef, so he was working permanent there and there were pension funds for my father and yes there were other things and then our sister, she was also working at the hospital also, so we were lucky because they were assisting one another.
AV: I want to ask you a question and its going to take us back right but its just one thing ... right you know you were saying your father was working as a chef and then you guys moved here, were you guys moved here as part of influx control or were you staying in the city and then they forced you to come and stay in Maandagshoek or is your family originally from Maandagshoek?
EM: We are from originally we are from Maandagshoek, my father was just working at Sasolburg so they were given the house where they staying as part of the company. So when we are going to Sasolburg we are staying together in the house that was given by the company.
AV: Your father used to stay at Sasolburg?
EM: He was staying at Sasolburg because he was working in Sasolburg.
AV: And he was coming back?
EM: Ja, mostly after two months he was coming to see things. That is why today, we still living in his house because he was not forever in Sasolburg he was also coming to see things how is going in Maandagshoek.
DM: So just to get a bit of sense also this time period when you were in Sasolburg working at this place, you became political, you eventually became a shop-steward. I mention this just on the personal level ... you grew up first in this area that is a little bit of an urban area and you come to rural area and later in your life you go back to the urban area. How do you see differences between life in a place like Maandagshoek and then you were working in Sasolburg? What you were saying to me is actually very interesting in this connection which is at least living in the city - if I am correct - is that actually the behaviour of those that are in the positions of power and have been trusted with power, if their behaviour is a particular way then it will reflect in the behaviour of people doing work at the lower level, so if they don't consult on big issues, then other people say why should we act like that at a local level. Is that correct, the connection is that the behaviour reflects itself all the way down in the society from those who are at top to those who are on the bottom.
EM: Let me say to you, those who are at the big positions, there is a cabinet in our country, even at the premier's office he must sit down with his followers to discuss the problems of this province, but the minute he start to talk about Zimbabwe, I don't know when Morgan Tshankarayi was arrested. I don't know when he was arrested I don't know the dates, but on the 27 April he was announcing that he is supporting the people of Zimbabwe, we started this strike 5 years back, fighting against the mine, but he have never said something about our lives. The people were relocated, the graves were removed by the mine, the ploughing fields were taken, they were bulldozing our people, but the big man in this province, he never did anything about our lives. We need a straight consultation from our side. When he was talking about supporting the people of Zimbabwe, we didn't heard something from the province, maybe to us as what we are saying about the issue of Zimbabwe, he just stand up using resources to say no we are supporting the people of Zimbabwe. How about our traditional leader, his parents just next to him? Before you can talk about cleaning my yard you must start with your yard first, you must check if your eyes are clean before you can tell me to clean my eyes, you can't tell me about the stick in my eyes ... how about the wood in your own eyes.
AV: Can I ask a question. You know you were speaking earlier ... before if a man had cattle and was planting crops he would be rich and I get the sense when you were saying that how it was before and then now it is no longer like that. Are people still planting crops as much as they used to plant?
EM: No, the reason is because the mines have took the place where our parents were ploughing. We don't have the cattle any more, because the mine have taken our grassing land for our cattle, so they have also took our water under the grounds. So we don't have enough water because of the mines, so they have destroyed our lives.
AV: Do you think that, the way in which like people lived or found the ways in which to make food every day and grow crops and keep cattle, that also meant that they were dependent on each other and that when those things disappear and people have to start looking for individual jobs and the people as a community they were less together?
EM: Let me tell you what is happening now, those they were ploughing, those they were feeding their cattle are the poorest in this village now because of the mines. So is nothing that they can do because of their ages. Their children are not employed in the mines and governments instance of helping poor people in this country as the way, there are always saying that we must fight against crime and poverty in our country, but the mines are creating poverty for our people in our country ... by that the government is quiet, they don't say anything. We suspect that's why the government is quiet they don't say anything ... we suspect that's why the government is so quite about us, why our president is quiet about us, why is the ministers, we suspect maybe because the issue of the mine is business and the business makes money and everybody likes money looking for a better lives. Maybe they are having the business in the mines. That is why they don't want to help us. If they have the business in mines why they don't want to help us? Why they don't want to help these poor people who are crying everyday, who are always keeping their voices and saying we need help. I think and I do believe that there is something that is helping them.
AV: I want to ask a couple of questions about services in 1994 when people were campaigning. Were any promises made by politicians to the area of Maandagshoek about installing electricity and water?
EM: Yes, as usual they are making the promises because they want votes. They did verbally say that we will get water; we will get electricity and so on. Until now is 12-13 years ago we are still waiting.
AV: I want to ask you ... in terms of electricity, when did they install or put in the electricity?
EM: In 1994.
AV: Did it come right away with your prepaid meter?
EM: Yes.
AV: So in 1994 they installed the prepaid meter?
EM: Yes.
AV: Did anyone complain when they installed prepaid meter?
EM: No, we did say we were happy for electricity and that we are no longer going to use candles anymore we will just switch the light, so we were happy and our people they are still happy with the electricity until now unless if it can be something from the people who needs more than, we are not supposed to do this and that. As the people from this rural area we don't know a lot of things, but because they have made up mistake, they gave us electricity and we are paying for it, we don't know ... is clear we have to pay it or not. But we can use it to watch the television and at the television we can see the people of Soweto, the people of Khutsong. I can say if we are in the meetings that this village would be like Khutsong because government doesn't want to listen to us and they don't want to help us. We have left with nothing but to protect our land. Even in the issue of electricity we are aware that people don't want to pay it and they don't want to pay for water. I had someone who was talking in Johannesburg - we were in the meeting - he is from Sharpeville - I forget his name ... he said when he was making presentation that people like to say South Africa is free, because our former president was released free, so they think the people are free as well, (but) we are not free and our president was released free. It was because of the noise of the people of South Africa. We are not free yet we need to be free like anybody who is working in the parliament.
DM: Let me ask you, does it make a difference to you, what you think for the community that someone like Patrice Motsepe is black as opposed to white ... so if a white miner, if Anglo Platinum comes with their CEO, a white guy came to Mandagshook and says that we are coming here, we want to have a mine, do you think it made a difference than if it was Patrice Motsepe who did that?
EM: Ja, it did make a difference for them, that is why now they got the chance to mine that side, because if you can listen to the politics to the business people, they like to say we are all black people we must agree. When Patrice Motsepe was talking smoothly to our people, you know we are still saying white people are bad people. They have killed our parents, so we don't want to get together with them. Even if our country says that we must stay together forgive each other on what happened in the past. That issue of Patrice Motsepe did make a change, but now people have realized that they are using this colour of black people to rob the people. They just come here and said that we black this and that. But we know that behind CEO of the Anglo Rulf Habeeste is there, is owning the mine with Patrice Motsepe. They just put Motsepe forward to rob us, so now the people are aware. That is why I said to you earlier that if you can talk bad about Richard Spoor, he is an "Afrikaans" man, but the people of Mandagshook, the community they don't want anything to do with him. But he is representing them without being paid anything, because of feeling for our people he felt that he should represent us for our rights.
AV: Can I ask you a question. What will the community do to these people if they weren't having body guards?
EM: "Broer", our community is very responsible. Why don't you ask yourself, why the community decided to burn the machines (rather) than the houses, so they can't do bad things to their people, because they are very respectful to their people.
DM: What I want to do (to) try to finish off Emmanuel is ... you told us now up until the present of all the problems and everything else. I want you just to tell us as an individual not as a community leader, not as Emmanuel Makgoga the man who spent time in jail, but as individual ...how do you feel here about what you see in the future, the way things are going, the challenges that you are facing ... how do you see that, for yourself as well as for your community?
EM: You're asking me as individual, as a person, but the question is taking me, because I can't take the decision on behalf of the people. So the people in group, I would encourage them that they must stand up for their rights, things are not going straight in this country, so people can talk and take decisions. We must make sure that we are getting better life. We must take this big company and the governments; we must take them together so that they can see how to give us the better lives. If it happens like that people will live better lives all.
DM: Okay, if you're saying if that happens ... if you can just comment or give us a sense what do you think, how do you feel ... you know sometimes you look at the future and some people can say "ahh" the future is bright and others say it doesn't look very good. How do you feel that as an individual?
EM: For Maandagshoek.
DM: For this place, for your life?
EM: Next five years I believe, we will be proud of this village it will be good village, our children they will get better life and everybody who will be living in this village will get better life.
DM: Okay on that note I think we will end, on that very positive note.
MINUTES: 102 minutes Emmanuel Mokgoga; 2007-06-10; 1
Date of interview: 2007-06-10
Location of interview: Maandagshoek, Limpopo
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Emmanuel Mokgoga
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_MAA_MokgogaEmmanuel_20070610
INTERVIEW WITH EMMANUEL MOKGOGA
DM: Ok can you please tell us your name and how long you have been in this community and basically what is it that you have been doing in the last three years?
EM: My name is Emmanuel Mokgoga I am living in this community of Maandagshoek and I am the leader of this community. I am the spokesperson of this community. I am leading them in the struggle against the platinum mines in our area, and we have started this strike for about five years.
DM: What is the name of the organisation that you are a leader of?
EM: The name of the organisation is the Maandagshoek Development Committee.
DM: Ok Emmanuel what we are going to do first is to take some time, we want to go back a bit about your own life, ja, can you tell us a bit about growing up in this community? And what was it was like in those days back in the 70s and 80s?
EM: I was born in 1978 and I was born in Vereeneging in the Free State and I started school at Vereeneging until Standard 2 and I came back to Maandagshoek and when I come here it was that time when the old government it was still oppressing black people especially at the rural areas. So when I come here my brothers and sisters there were up and down to see that democracy is coming to our country so in 70s and 80s I started there to learn about the struggle to see how our parents and how our brothers here have been tortured and how they were strong. So I started to learn about these issues of strike.
DM: And were you involved as a child, as a young child in any political activities?
EM: Yes I still remember things especially in 1988 somewhere there I was there as ... I can't remember how old I was by that time but I was involved and then I was supporting our brothers even if they were chasing me saying I'm still young I must go sleep and then I must sit in the yard but I was supporting them so I'm really saying that I started long ago this issue of strike.
DM: Did you, when you were a student did you belong to any organisation?
EM: No, I did not belong to any organisation but I was supporting the political parties that were singing we want free in South Africa. So I was also supporting that. Even also today I am not following any political party but I'm supporting the political parties who are still saying we want freedom in our country because we are not free yet in our country. If you can see now people they are still tortured, people they are still getting arrested unnecessary, people they are still getting killed, there is still, there is no jobs for our people so people who are on top are like to say there is democracy in our country which is that democracy is just that there at their families. So we as black people especially at the rural areas and we don't see that democracy taking place in our country.
DM: From the early 1990s, when things started changing ... the liberation movements were unbanned, you were probably 13/14 years old at that point?
EM: Yes.
DM: What do you remember about that period most at the time when Mandela was released, the talks started happening?
EM: Before and after Mandela was released I was hoping that all South Africa they would get better because after Mandela he was released in jail he just walked outside. I don't know he was still at Cape Town at the (inaudible) ... and then raises his hand and says long walk to freedom and then the people they were happy. And then when Mandela comes to Cape Town for the first time talks in the Cape Town says South Africa is for all South Africans blacks, individuals and white, coloured and everybody whom is living in this country. I was hoping that that we will get better life for all South Africans as the former president has said.
AV: So for your family at that time - although you were still young - what was the biggest problem in the house, the biggest changes for your household before the ANC took over?
EM: What do you mean?
AV: Like you know the things that your father worried about at night or your mother worried at night?
EM: My father when he was still alive at that time, he was worried about his children when they are going to the street because at that time the people they were getting shots like the issue of Sebokeng, Sharpville and Soweto. People they were just dying unnecessary so my father and my mother also they were worried my brothers and sisters when they were out maybe they may be getting arrested, so they were worried about that and he encouraged us to go to school.
DM: So when did you move here to Maandagshoek, what year did you come here because you said you were born in Vereeniging and then you moved here. How old were you?
EM: I was 10 years old.
DM: It was about late 1980s that you came here?
EM: Yes.
DM: This area was a homeland part of Lebowa right?
EM: The former land of North Sekhukhune land.
DM: Sekhukhune land?
EM: Yes.
DM: That was governed by the homeland authority?
EM: Yes.
DM: And so when you come here as child or a 10 years old/ 11 years what do you, how did you move from Vereeniging in that area there what was it like the homeland in those days, how were things?
EM: Things it was still at the lower, the people they were still respecting the culture of Bapedi. The people they were still respecting the traditional leaders and also the traditional leaders they were respecting the people because they understand that they are at that position because of the people. So they are respecting the people when they were ploughing and doing things according to tradition of the people of Bapedi.
DM: Once things started changing, how was it when the homeland system started going away, how would you describe those times in terms of the fact they had this thing about traditional leaders, cultural aspects when things were moving and shifting? Ok what I was asking was when things started politically changing and the homelands were beginning to (fall) away what effects were there politically ... what do you think they had on this community, the things that you were talking about, the role of the traditional leaders, the cultural aspects of things in this community. Did they make a big difference or did they make no difference at all - those political shifts?
EM: Ja, they did make difference but that difference is not because they have supports the culture , they have killed the culture of the Bapedi nation because after 1994 the people take power in the government to lead certain things in the government. We were hoping that they will support our culture, they will support black in everything that they want to do in this country but things is not like that and instead of supporting our culture (they are) supporting the old government by empowering the capitalist in our country. We select them as we know that they are communism but when they sitting at that position they started to capitalize instead of supporting us, so now we don't know anything but our culture.
DM: Can you just explain when you say our culture what do you mean by that when you say our culture as Bapedi?
EM: Our culture, when we are usually when we are roughly 20 I mean 10/12/13/14 we have to go to circumcision as a boys and the women also. The girls when they are 12/13/14 they have to go to the circumcision and then after we come to the circumcisions we must get something, presents from our parents that shows that we not children anymore we are men. So we can carry other responsibility from our family and also to the girls is just like that. And mostly when we are from the circumcision if your father is having cattle or goats he must give you some or one of that and you take responsibility for that. So, then we were also ploughing, if my father have a big farm he must give a hectare and then I can be trustful, to be responsible, for that is our culture that is working.
DM: Ok and how is it that, can you make the connection between the loss of that culture as it begun to be lost is that what you are saying and the changes that were beginning or no changes ... I mean the things you talked about which didn't seem they were going to support, the new government was not going to support people, particularly black people in the rural areas like this place?
EM: What do you want me to say?
DM: I'm asking you the connection between the loss of culture, how did the loss of culture happen? How is that connected with the changes that happened in the 1990s?
EM: There is no connection, there is no difference. There is no connection because we lost our culture because of the new government. And we did enjoy our culture by the apartheid government after that new government taking chance, we lost our culture.
AV: What did they do so that you lost your culture, what was different in the apartheid era that made a difference?
EM: The apartheid government they were respecting our culture. The people they were going to the circumcision, ploughing the way they want. Now if you can check the government is taking our land without consulting with the owner of the land, and if you can check now the people they are killing other people without reason, they would be released in jail without the reason. And by that time, by that apartheid issue, apartheid time you can't just killing the people without the police asking you the reason why you've killed the people. So at least by that time even if our black people they were oppressed by that time but they were enjoying their culture with other people who are living in this country. Now we are not enjoying our culture. When you are a leader in this country, let's say you are a Zulu, or Xhosa or a Pedi. If I am a Xhosa I'm leading the South Africans the people they are not going to be happy they are going to say because I'm a Xhosa I'm not supposed to lead the South African, I'm not supposed to lead the Zulu because I'm a Xhosa, I'm not supposed to lead the Pedi because I'm a Xhosa, which is totally wrong, you see. So we must respect the people who are living in this country.
DM: After 1994, when 1994 happened, when the first election April 27 happened, were you, at that point, old enough to vote?
EM: Yes I was 19.
DM: So you voted in that election?
EM: I didn't vote at first democracy election in this, I didn't vote, I voted at for the second election when we were voting for the second president Thabo Mbeki.
DM: Ok and the reason why you didn't vote was because of just practical reasons?
EM: At the first as far as I still remember it was the problem of the ID.
DM: You got excited when Mandela got released and everything but in 1994 was start of the moment for a lot of people you know, I think of ... they were celebrating. What do you remember most about that day, that time period, by then 1994?
EM: Everybody was happy and I was happy to the first black president in our country and to see the first democracy for elections in our country, so everybody was happy.
AV: When this happened what were you doing, were you in or out of school?
EM: When this....
AV: Ja during the 1994, when the 1994 elections took place?
EM: Yes I was at school at that moment.
AV: What standard?
EM: I was in ... because I did fail twice but I think I was in standard 8 at that moment.
AV: Ok and in the school what were other people talking about in terms of the elections?
EM: Yes, the people they where happy because it was the first elections in our country. And then most of people they were talking about Doctor Nelson Mandela especially the blacks at the school. They were saying they were going to vote for the first black president President Doctor Nelson Mandela. So it was not surprise for me to him winning the elections. And they were about his release from jail and they talking about the death of Chris Hani because if you can see the death of Chris Hani makes the people to worry to put their attention at the politics after the death of Chris Hani because after the death of Chris Hani people come up and saying he was hero, he was a fighter, he supposed to becoming president before Mandela and then people started, students at school started to talk about Mandela being released and the death of Chris Hani and the new elections the first new elections in our country.
AV: When Chris Hani died you know in Johannesburg there were a lot of marches ...did anything happen here?
EM: What happened in the rural I was not aware myself that Chris Hani he lost his life last night or last day. My parents send me to the shops to buy breads. When I arrived the shops I told one who was helping me that I need bread, there is no bread because Chris Hani he lost his life. I asked myself who was Chris Hani? I was saying maybe he was talking about the Christians but realised no Chris Hani, the guy who fight for the country and I said why there is no bread because Chris Hani died. He said the bakery didn't deliver the bread so there is no one who was working at this moment to make breads so there is no in any shops here, so that is when I sat down and then, immediately sit down with other comrades in the shop and talk about his death, how his death comes.
AV: And at the high school where you were studying, was there an organisation like COSAS or any of those student organisations here?
EM: Yes, but it was not COSAS, it was just the ... I can't remember but there were representatives at the school. And we were fighting against at school we were demanding better life, better education. And the, usually there at school there were, you see if you do wrong they have to give you smash out, give you some lashes, we were against that as students at school but I was just supporting them toyi - toying.
AV: And on those three days of elections, what was happening not in the school but the rest of the area? Were there rallies?
EM: Were there ...?
AV: Like rallies or mass meetings?
EM: Yes, on that three days the people they just going to the vote station to vote. So and we asking one another did you vote for this and this so we were just going in groups and then we were happy our fathers, our brothers they were voting.
AV: And when the ... do you remember the inauguration?
EM: Inauguration, yes.
AV: Was there any kind of celebration here or special kinds of government sponsored events here in Mandagshook?
EM: No, inauguration time let me say when we were fighting the old government we were just gathering around here at Maandagshoek and singing, we were saying siyaya e Pitori but we were not going to Pretoria. We were just around here and then celebrating showing that we are not happy and the police they were coming beating us, arresting us, torturing us. And then at that time there was a pastor at the hospital that side, he was a white guy, we were going there and the doctors who were working at the hospital, we were just going there and fighting with that people but we were saying we are to Pretoria, we would be fighting this government. So by that inauguration time we were just here and murmuring about the inauguration time saying this and this. We were just around; there was no big meeting from the government or everything else, no.
DM: I want to ask you, I mean you are ok, the changes in the government takes place, Mandela becoming the President, the ANC coming to power, you graduate from what, did you get your degree from high school, did you graduate from high school?
EM: I failed Std 10.
DM: So when did you ... after 1994 how did things shift in the community in terms of you know, everybody was happy Mandela is the president and everything else? Try to give us that sense of 1995/6/7 period, three years after. Ok, now the changes are made, what then happened, how did people feel about the new situation?
EM: After 1994/95 we were hoping a better life as I said just now to you. And we were hoping that it would be great thing if we South Africans can be united. When I'm talking about united I'm talking about the police, the government, the communities and the president and everybody be united and to say one thing. But is not like the way hoping, we were saying that we will get jobs, we will get free things like they were saying when they want us to vote for them. We were saying we would get free bursaries, we would go to school free, we will get water free because we have fight for this democracy. And then fail also to be free in this country but things at this moment at this time is not the way we were wishing.
DM: Now during ... after what was the main, let's say 1994/95 those years there, what was the main activity in the community in terms of what is small scale farming, what is it, I know there were mines around but these mines was not here yet were they?
EM: Ja.
DM: What where most people doing in this community making a living?
EM: Most of the people here, and most of the people they were looking after their cattle. And if you were farming the cattle also you were a rich guy in this village of Maandagshoek because there were, the people there suffering because there were no jobs around here, so they were the main thing that they were doing they were ploughing "mabele" mealie and ploughing pumpkin and sugar canes and spinach also and other things that will make them survive. They were selling these things; they were using those things to eat sometimes. And they were getting the milk from the cows, from the goats, they were getting meat from the pigs that they were having in their yards because there was no jobs. So and then if you pass Std 10 and then you want to go to school or at the school they want the money for the school funds they were selling cows somewhere and take the money to pay school fees for you. And most of the people who are the resident today, who are leading the community they have survived because of that.
DM: Landowners?
EM: Yes, their children have survived.
DM: Now when you are saying people having land, I have interest ... was it individual ownership or did it come under collective tribal trust or what was it like ... how is land in this community divided, did you have a tribal authority?
EM: No.
DM: Who decided whose land that is?
EM: The Chief, the tribal authority is deciding. Like you, if you want to become part of this community, the citizen of this community you go to the chief and then he will show you the place were you are going to stay. And he is also going to show you the places where you are going to plough.
AV: Just back a little bit. Emmanuel, you were in Std 8 in 1994, so you were in school till 1996?
EM: Ja.
AV: Were there any changes in the school in those three years? When you were still in school?
EM: The changes concerning?
AV: Like for instance you said corporal punishment of something that you were protesting against as the SRC?
EM: Ja.
AV: What did that, was that done?
EM: Yes, one there was a trip to Polokwane and then I was the part of that because I was playing soccer so we were going there to play the games. So at that time I was drinking liquor and then I was drunk and I swear at the teacher at the school at that moment because we were so drunk. I told them this and this and this after they reported me to my parents and they write a letter to my parents so that they must go to the school and when they arrived my younger father said to the teachers, he agreed that I did the mistake but the government is not allowing them to give me "Sjambok", so he don't know what he can tell them to do about me. So that thing comes to me and say keeps to my mind that no, this issue of giving people "Sjambok" and beating them is out of the school because even our parents they are aware what is happening.
AV: But in terms of other things like text books, teachers ... were there more schools being built?
EM: Still even after 1994?
EM: Yes, even after 1994 even now, they are still sharing the textbooks, they are still sharing the classroom, they are still sharing lot of things at the school. There is not enough desks at the school.
AV: You know just speaking to you, I mean you are by far like many of the people that we have spoken to ... someone who is very intelligent you know, articulate I mean certainly a strong leader, What happened in school ... how come you didn't make a matric?
EM: Eee... Broer I have run from school to Sasolburg to work. My father he was working in Vereeniging just next to Sasolburg and my broer Gabriel was working in Sasolburg. I was a fighter when I was still a student because still drinking. And then I decided that from myself that because of the teachers they are hitting me now, so they hate me and parents are not happy to the things that I'm doing now and then I got the injury here, I was fighting with brothers at that time, and I'm just decided that I'm going to work and then I went to Sasolburg to my brother. And then they said to me I must go to school. I said I want to work. My sister she is a nurse, she is staying at Bracketesier just next to Burgersfort, she said to me I must go to school the way I like she will take the responsibility, she will pay it for me but I ignored her, I didn't go to the school and then I went to Sasolburg to work.
AV: I wanted to ask about, just before more of the other stuff, about drinking and how you started drinking?
EM: Hmm, I can't tell how I stated drinking beer but I just started with my friends especially we were enjoying drinking when we were taking trips at the school. So were coming together and donate something and buying some case of beers.
AV: And this is mainly scholars?
EM: Ja.
AV: So there was a lot of drinking in the school?
EM: Ja there was a lot of drinking in the school during the trips games.
AV: When you went to work, where did you go and work?
EM: At Sasolburg at the company called Homenear fertilizers, so they were doing a fertilizer and they were also making the production called PPM, this is like Majarteen at the mine they are using it to the dynamites, a small whites I was assisting the operators, I was loading that in the truck when they were loading to the mine for the explosions.
AV: And while you were working there where were you living?
EM: I was living in Sasolburg at Zamdela. There was a flat where my brother he was staying so I was staying together with him.
AV: Is that where you became involved in the ...?
EM: Broer, when I started to work it was my first time to meet with the white people, with Xhosa, with other different people at the same place. I started by working first and I was still afraid to talk but usually myself I hate the people who think they are smart or wise than other people especially the way they were treating the blacks, the way they were treating me, I was not happy about that and I can also, I can also say I thank they have treated me because I started to learn how the people they were tortured at the apartheid era. So when the time goes I was just working as the labourer and I was getting peanuts, the white people, most of them they were supervisors, they not working like black people. Black people they were picking up 50 bags of production into the trucks and the white people they were just in the office even if they don't have the education or the rights authority to do that because of their colour they were supervising us, they were doing what they want in the company.
AV: How did you express the political consciousness, how did you know that this is wrong ... but you said you started learning yourself ... what did you do?
EM: Yes, as I'm saying to you I can thank the way they have treated me because I remember there is a white guy who was driving the fork-lift and they were loading the production in the containers and he said to me he is going to the office he is coming back, I must just driving the fork-lift the production and when he came the fork-lift stuck, there was soil somewhere there stuck and say to me just kyk hier die kaffier hoe ry die fork-lift nou het ge stuck, hal uit gaan maak, and I was angry and I told that I'm not happy the way he is calling me and I would report him but at that time even if I can report him there is nothing which is going to happen to him. And we goes like that, we goes and until we join the union called SEPAWU under COSATU is where I was elected to be Shopsteward by the workers. And I know the reason why they have elected me to be Shopsteward is because I was fully agreed to say we are tortured, we are not respected by our employers, by the white people in the company. And then I was talking free to the other comrades that gentlemen we must join the union we must listen to the radio how the people they are fighting against the bad employment from the companies. So we must fight for our rights, we are not free yet, we are getting peanuts. At that time I started to work people they were still getting R4.50 per hour, even now they are still struggling to get R7/8 but we want a better life for all and automatically us. I blame our government because if you can check all the people who are working in the big companies at Sasolburg, Rustenburg, in the mine ... most of them they are working for the temporarily, they are working for the private companies. When we are talking about private company if I'm the owner of the private company I employ you now and dismiss you now because I've got my own power in that company. So from that time the workers started to know that I can be a good leader, I can represent them. So I was not shy to speak to the white people, to tell them in the meeting that the way you are treating us is bad.
AV: And this is the same place you started working?
EM: Yes.
AV: How long did you work there?
EM: I worked for them six years.
AV: So you started in 1996?
EM: Ja.
AV: When did you become SEPAWU and when did SEPAWU start working with workers?
EM: I started working in 1996 and I was dismissed in 2005, is that nine years?
DM: Nine years?
EM: I was dismissed on the 10th of September.
AV: When did you join SEPAWU?
EM: I joined SEPAWU after 2001.
AV: Alright, from 1996 to 2001 you were not unionized, there was no union?
EM: Union, it was there, it was there we were already joining the union but in, on the end of 2000, it was December when I elected to be a Shopsteward and I started to work with the comrades.
DM: I want to get a sense, during that time that was late 1995/96 when you started working there, how did you change in the relationship between you and the community your family, people here that you left? Because many young people like yourself they are going to work, they are trying to get jobs far away, how was that for you to be away from family the place where you considered to be home?
EM: It was difficult broer because I am the last born in this family, so usually I have to be responsible for my parents when I'm the last born especially when I'm the boy. I have to be responsible for my mother and my father. And it was difficult for me because she was alone, my brothers they were still staying with her but they were doing their own things to showing that they were growing up they must build their own houses. So I was feeling shame for my mom and saying no I have to go to be next to my mother or I have to get married for a wife whose going be together with my mom. So it was difficult for me, it was difficult because I was coming home after two months, it was depending when I was off. Sometimes if I supposed to be not going to be off because you'll be taking sick note and I have to go work for your time.
AV: So when you weren't here your brother and your mother were staying here, where was food coming from and I mean so forth? How was she surviving?
EM: Broer we were lucky. We were lucky because our father was working before, he died in 1993 so he was working in Makhaflini, there was a place called Makhaflini, he was a chef, so he was working permanent there and there were pension funds for my father and yes there were other things and then our sister, she was also working at the hospital also, so we were lucky because they were assisting one another.
AV: I want to ask you a question and its going to take us back right but its just one thing ... right you know you were saying your father was working as a chef and then you guys moved here, were you guys moved here as part of influx control or were you staying in the city and then they forced you to come and stay in Maandagshoek or is your family originally from Maandagshoek?
EM: We are from originally we are from Maandagshoek, my father was just working at Sasolburg so they were given the house where they staying as part of the company. So when we are going to Sasolburg we are staying together in the house that was given by the company.
AV: Your father used to stay at Sasolburg?
EM: He was staying at Sasolburg because he was working in Sasolburg.
AV: And he was coming back?
EM: Ja, mostly after two months he was coming to see things. That is why today, we still living in his house because he was not forever in Sasolburg he was also coming to see things how is going in Maandagshoek.
DM: So just to get a bit of sense also this time period when you were in Sasolburg working at this place, you became political, you eventually became a shop-steward. I mention this just on the personal level ... you grew up first in this area that is a little bit of an urban area and you come to rural area and later in your life you go back to the urban area. How do you see differences between life in a place like Maandagshoek and then you were working in Sasolburg? What you were saying to me is actually very interesting in this connection which is at least living in the city - if I am correct - is that actually the behaviour of those that are in the positions of power and have been trusted with power, if their behaviour is a particular way then it will reflect in the behaviour of people doing work at the lower level, so if they don't consult on big issues, then other people say why should we act like that at a local level. Is that correct, the connection is that the behaviour reflects itself all the way down in the society from those who are at top to those who are on the bottom.
EM: Let me say to you, those who are at the big positions, there is a cabinet in our country, even at the premier's office he must sit down with his followers to discuss the problems of this province, but the minute he start to talk about Zimbabwe, I don't know when Morgan Tshankarayi was arrested. I don't know when he was arrested I don't know the dates, but on the 27 April he was announcing that he is supporting the people of Zimbabwe, we started this strike 5 years back, fighting against the mine, but he have never said something about our lives. The people were relocated, the graves were removed by the mine, the ploughing fields were taken, they were bulldozing our people, but the big man in this province, he never did anything about our lives. We need a straight consultation from our side. When he was talking about supporting the people of Zimbabwe, we didn't heard something from the province, maybe to us as what we are saying about the issue of Zimbabwe, he just stand up using resources to say no we are supporting the people of Zimbabwe. How about our traditional leader, his parents just next to him? Before you can talk about cleaning my yard you must start with your yard first, you must check if your eyes are clean before you can tell me to clean my eyes, you can't tell me about the stick in my eyes ... how about the wood in your own eyes.
AV: Can I ask a question. You know you were speaking earlier ... before if a man had cattle and was planting crops he would be rich and I get the sense when you were saying that how it was before and then now it is no longer like that. Are people still planting crops as much as they used to plant?
EM: No, the reason is because the mines have took the place where our parents were ploughing. We don't have the cattle any more, because the mine have taken our grassing land for our cattle, so they have also took our water under the grounds. So we don't have enough water because of the mines, so they have destroyed our lives.
AV: Do you think that, the way in which like people lived or found the ways in which to make food every day and grow crops and keep cattle, that also meant that they were dependent on each other and that when those things disappear and people have to start looking for individual jobs and the people as a community they were less together?
EM: Let me tell you what is happening now, those they were ploughing, those they were feeding their cattle are the poorest in this village now because of the mines. So is nothing that they can do because of their ages. Their children are not employed in the mines and governments instance of helping poor people in this country as the way, there are always saying that we must fight against crime and poverty in our country, but the mines are creating poverty for our people in our country ... by that the government is quiet, they don't say anything. We suspect that's why the government is quiet they don't say anything ... we suspect that's why the government is so quite about us, why our president is quiet about us, why is the ministers, we suspect maybe because the issue of the mine is business and the business makes money and everybody likes money looking for a better lives. Maybe they are having the business in the mines. That is why they don't want to help us. If they have the business in mines why they don't want to help us? Why they don't want to help these poor people who are crying everyday, who are always keeping their voices and saying we need help. I think and I do believe that there is something that is helping them.
AV: I want to ask a couple of questions about services in 1994 when people were campaigning. Were any promises made by politicians to the area of Maandagshoek about installing electricity and water?
EM: Yes, as usual they are making the promises because they want votes. They did verbally say that we will get water; we will get electricity and so on. Until now is 12-13 years ago we are still waiting.
AV: I want to ask you ... in terms of electricity, when did they install or put in the electricity?
EM: In 1994.
AV: Did it come right away with your prepaid meter?
EM: Yes.
AV: So in 1994 they installed the prepaid meter?
EM: Yes.
AV: Did anyone complain when they installed prepaid meter?
EM: No, we did say we were happy for electricity and that we are no longer going to use candles anymore we will just switch the light, so we were happy and our people they are still happy with the electricity until now unless if it can be something from the people who needs more than, we are not supposed to do this and that. As the people from this rural area we don't know a lot of things, but because they have made up mistake, they gave us electricity and we are paying for it, we don't know ... is clear we have to pay it or not. But we can use it to watch the television and at the television we can see the people of Soweto, the people of Khutsong. I can say if we are in the meetings that this village would be like Khutsong because government doesn't want to listen to us and they don't want to help us. We have left with nothing but to protect our land. Even in the issue of electricity we are aware that people don't want to pay it and they don't want to pay for water. I had someone who was talking in Johannesburg - we were in the meeting - he is from Sharpeville - I forget his name ... he said when he was making presentation that people like to say South Africa is free, because our former president was released free, so they think the people are free as well, (but) we are not free and our president was released free. It was because of the noise of the people of South Africa. We are not free yet we need to be free like anybody who is working in the parliament.
DM: Let me ask you, does it make a difference to you, what you think for the community that someone like Patrice Motsepe is black as opposed to white ... so if a white miner, if Anglo Platinum comes with their CEO, a white guy came to Mandagshook and says that we are coming here, we want to have a mine, do you think it made a difference than if it was Patrice Motsepe who did that?
EM: Ja, it did make a difference for them, that is why now they got the chance to mine that side, because if you can listen to the politics to the business people, they like to say we are all black people we must agree. When Patrice Motsepe was talking smoothly to our people, you know we are still saying white people are bad people. They have killed our parents, so we don't want to get together with them. Even if our country says that we must stay together forgive each other on what happened in the past. That issue of Patrice Motsepe did make a change, but now people have realized that they are using this colour of black people to rob the people. They just come here and said that we black this and that. But we know that behind CEO of the Anglo Rulf Habeeste is there, is owning the mine with Patrice Motsepe. They just put Motsepe forward to rob us, so now the people are aware. That is why I said to you earlier that if you can talk bad about Richard Spoor, he is an "Afrikaans" man, but the people of Mandagshook, the community they don't want anything to do with him. But he is representing them without being paid anything, because of feeling for our people he felt that he should represent us for our rights.
AV: Can I ask you a question. What will the community do to these people if they weren't having body guards?
EM: "Broer", our community is very responsible. Why don't you ask yourself, why the community decided to burn the machines (rather) than the houses, so they can't do bad things to their people, because they are very respectful to their people.
DM: What I want to do (to) try to finish off Emmanuel is ... you told us now up until the present of all the problems and everything else. I want you just to tell us as an individual not as a community leader, not as Emmanuel Makgoga the man who spent time in jail, but as individual ...how do you feel here about what you see in the future, the way things are going, the challenges that you are facing ... how do you see that, for yourself as well as for your community?
EM: You're asking me as individual, as a person, but the question is taking me, because I can't take the decision on behalf of the people. So the people in group, I would encourage them that they must stand up for their rights, things are not going straight in this country, so people can talk and take decisions. We must make sure that we are getting better life. We must take this big company and the governments; we must take them together so that they can see how to give us the better lives. If it happens like that people will live better lives all.
DM: Okay, if you're saying if that happens ... if you can just comment or give us a sense what do you think, how do you feel ... you know sometimes you look at the future and some people can say "ahh" the future is bright and others say it doesn't look very good. How do you feel that as an individual?
EM: For Maandagshoek.
DM: For this place, for your life?
EM: Next five years I believe, we will be proud of this village it will be good village, our children they will get better life and everybody who will be living in this village will get better life.
DM: Okay on that note I think we will end, on that very positive note.
MINUTES: 102 minutes Emmanuel Mokgoga; 2007-06-10; 1
Transcript: Download (77 KB)
SAHA
Related Objects
Part one of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (February 24, 2008)
SAHA
Emmanuel Makgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, during an oral history interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
Courtesy of SAHA
Part two of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (February 25, 2008)
Courtesy of SAHA
Creator: McKinley, Dale
Mokgoga, Emmanuel
Veriava, Ahmed
Mokgoga, Emmanuel
Veriava, Ahmed
Contributing Institutions: SAHA; MATRIX: The Center for Humane Arts, Letters and Social Sciences Online at Michigan State University
Contributor: Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Biography: Twenty nine at the time of the interview and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, Emmanuel Mokgoga is married with two children. Born in Vereeniging, he moved back to the family home in Maandagshoek when he was ten. After matric he went to work in Sasolburg and became a shop steward in the South African Paper Printing and Allied Workers Union (SAPPAWU). He returned to Maandagshoek after being retrenched and has become one of the key community leaders/activists in the area and has traveled fairly widely and done work with various NGOs and social movements.
Description: The first interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, was conducted by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava in Maandagshoek in 2007 as part of the South African History Archive's Alternative History Project, titled 'Forgotten Voices in the Present'.
Date: June 10, 2007
Location: Maandagshoek, Limpopo, Republic of South Africa
Format: Audio/mp3
Language: English
Rights Management: For educational use only.
Digitizer: SAHA
Source: SAHA collection AL3280
