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Part one of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
Part one of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
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First interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (June 10, 2007)
Emmanuel Makgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, during an oral history interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
Part two of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (February 25, 2008)
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Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2008-02-24
Location of interview: Maandagshoek, Limpopo
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Emmanuel Mokgoga
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_MAA_MokgogaEmmanuel_20080224a SECOND INTERVIEW WITH EMMANUEL MOKGOGA (Part 1)
Dale McKinley (DM): Ok this is just a continuation of our first interview with Emmanuel Mogoga and we are here in Maandagshoek. Today is the 27th of February 2008 and we are speaking to Emmanuel as we continue on a more in-depth interview. First of all thanks Emmanuel once again for making yourself available.
Emmanuel Mokgoga (EM): You are welcome Dale.
DM: What we want to do is we want to find out more about your family and we talked very briefly in our first interview about that, so feel free to tell us whatever you want. First of all let's talk about your father. Tell us a little bit more about your father - what kind of a man was he? What was...do you remember?
EM: Yes I'm still remembering because he passed away in 1992 and then he was working at Veereniging, at the place called Marcufflene. He was a chef, just next to the Lingual river. And he was a good father like other fathers in this country because if you can see now we are six in the family and we are only having one sister and she is the first one and there are 5 brothers. She is much effectiveness ... and my brother, the first brother in the men is working in the hospital. He is the one who is ordering the food in the hospital; I don't know what they call him.
DM: Which hospital?
EM: In Dilokong hospital.
DM: Ok.
EM: And then ... other 3 brothers they are working in the mines. And then I really believe that he was a good father and we have grown up under his law or under his responsibilities because he was working far and then taking responsibilities of my mother and the children also. I knew that there was my first brother called Lawrence. He was not talking himself ... I don't know how can I talk that but he was not talking by himself.
DM: Was he disabled?
EM: Yes disabled and then he passed away in 1976. He was working at Sowetan in Joburg and he was staying in Soweto. And even today we don't know where they have buried him and it was that time of strikes - everybody going up and down during the apartheid taking place and he was killed by the people. I still remember there was a photo where he was lying down and then there was a lot of blood where he lying. Sometimes I used to think that my father thought about that and he died and he don't know were his son is at this moment, who buried him? He doesn't know the cause of the incident , why he was killed. And then I'm thinking that my mother and my father they are also thinking about it because he was also disabled and how he was screaming about that incident happening and I tried to attach with the Scorpions and try to investigate the death of my brother and also trying to ask my parents. My brothers it's seems ... I don't want to use these words ... maybe my brothers they don't care it's just maybe they don't have the same pain that I'm having in my heart about my brother. Because if you can see now Dale, everyone how their parents they have been dying or how their brothers, so I also feel that one day I must investigate and find the bones of my brother and we take the bones of my brother and then we give him the respect by everybody and bury him. I think if we can do that with my brothers and sisters before my mother she can die, I don't say my mother she must die but everybody who lives in the world we believe that we will die. The person who was born by the woman or a man his or her days are counted when the days are over you die and my mother she is still going to die. I think that before she could die I would be happy if we have found the bones or we can find where my brother he was buried.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): Can I ask something about your brother. When you are saying people killed him, do you know who or you don't?
EM: Yes I don't know who killed my brother and because of the blood and there were police from Joburg - they sent the message to the other police stations ... they then explained to my mother and my father. They told them, my parents, that my brother is killed and they showed my parents the photo. He was lying down and there was blood meaning that they have done something to him - that is why there was blood.
AV: And just coming back to your father, was he born in Maandagshoek?
EM: No my father was born at the place called Skirnoord, I don't know if you know the place somewhere in Jane Furse at the place called Masethleng and I don't know when they came in Maandagshoek, in the 50s for sure, and they came in Maandagshoek. They were staying at the hills there and they came to build the house here.
AV: So he came with your mum already?
EM: Yes.
AV: He was already married?
EM: Yes, he was already married my mother.
AV: And your mum's family do you know were are they from?
EM: They are from the same place at Jane Furse and I think they were together from that time and then that it why we are still with my mother, you see.
DM: Besides the brother that died that you mentioned, all your brothers and sisters are still living?
EM: Yes.
DM: You said the three brothers are working in the mines, are they in this area or which mines?
EM: Yes my brother his name is Charles is working at Modikwe and the guy who is coming after Charles his name is Gabriel he is working at Marula and the guy who is called Simon he is working at Modikwe. I'm coming after Simon they are just near Maandagshoek. You know Marula its just near us and also Modikwe is just on our farms.
AV: And your brother who passed, was he the first born?
EM: Yes he was the first born.
AV: And then what does that mean, I know when we were here last time you were saying to me that because you are a last born it means that it is your duty to take care of your parents?
EM: Yes.
AV: What are the responsibilities of the first born?
EM: We know that when you are a first born Ahmed you will be proud because your parents' will be proud of taking care of you especially when you are a first born and they want to make sure that everything you need you got. And then when you beginning to be a man, doing things on your own and then maybe let say you will be lucky to work, you like to be like your parents, the children that are coming after you or behind you need to take the responsibility that their parents were giving to you. So I think you will be proud and if your parents they have never worked, they never got the chance to build the house, they never got the chance to buy goods in your. If you are working or educated I don't want to use the word educated .. if maybe you are going up and down and seeing things, especially if you are staying in the rural areas, you will buy things that they have never bought. So when you are a first born you must be proud and then take the responsibility for your parents and also for your younger brothers and sisters.
DM: And as the last born, your mother stays here with you?
EM: Yes.
DM: Tell us a little bit about your mother. Obviously you have got a very close relationship with her?
EM: Yes my mother she is good for me and I believe and for everybody because since I was born she never never want me to do bad things. She always wants me to do good things and then she encouraged me to love other people. I am happy because in this family when somebody do wrong thing or good things, she is calling us and say you see what Simon is doing is bad and then when Simon or Gabriel is doing good things tomorrow she calling us again and say what Simon is doing is good. So, meaning that we are equal because we are all her children. So there is no any difference to my mother and then she is encouraging all of us to do good things. So I praise her as a hero because she meets different challenges in the country. One day I was checking on his box where he puts his ID and cards and then I saw where the police wrote on the letter that she must ... I don't know what was happening when you were going to the urban area and how long are you going to stay in Veereniging or in Joburg. They wrote them a letter that if she is not coming back by that time she will be arrested and my mother told me that she never came back by that time and she was arrested and stayed in the prison. And then I was just thinking myself that how was a prison at that time and then how was my mum at that time in jail in that apartheid because they were just beating everybody outside but how was my mother because she was in the prison. So I was thinking about that because I was also arrested one day and I was just thinking that how she was in prison as young as she was.
AV: And how did it make you feel?
EM: I feel bad but Ahmed, there is nothing I can do, it's just for me when I'm watching the TV or when I'm watching the disc for the struggle especially when I'm watching the film of Sarafina. When I'm watching about Mzwake singing about the black people, where are they coming from, I'm just next to the tears sometimes but I feel like to carry out the gun and go out and revenge for my parents and for that people who were fighting for democracy. But I have just said there is nothing that I can do and it's better that I stop thinking about this, it's better if I stop to watch the film of Sarafina or is better to stop to watch the drums of Mzwake you see, or to stop watching other activities.
AV: And your mum how did she feel about if? How did she tell you about going to jail?
EM: I didn't ask my mother a lot of questions about how it was in the jail and so I just think how it is to be in the jail because I'm still young and when I think about this story I'm next to the tears sometimes.
DM: And just...your own family now. We didn't even talk too much about your partner or your wife, about your family ... tell us anything that you want to tell us?
EM: The name of my wife is Grace Komane. She is from Jane Furse at the place called Ga-Molepane. I met Grace at Veereniging, she was staying at Vanderbilpark and then she was attending school at the college at Vanderbilpark. And I met Grace at the church; we were attending the same church. And I was the secretary at the church that I was attending with Grace. So she was traveling from Vanderbilpark to Sasolburg and I needed time to speak with Grace about love. I was not having the chance to speak to Grace because she was attending the church and then after the church she was going to the taxi rank, sometimes I was busy reading the books with the Pastor. I was even refusing to ask Grace for her numbers - where I could contact her so we can talk.
AV: Were you shy?
EM: No I was not shy, I was just respecting my Pastor and everybody in the church. One day it happened that one of the members of the church died and I was called by the Pastor to call others and the name of Grace was called and I asked the numbers of Grace to call her. So the Pastor gave me the phones and then I called Grace but I did not talk to her because she didn't have the phone. So I left the message and then she phoned back then it's where I started to communicate with Grace. After talking about the death of the member of the church I started my own personal issues. So it's when we started visiting and talk about the issues until she finished at the school and then she came to Sasolburg and started to live with me. To me Grace is a good lady. What I did now is I married her as my wife but I didn't make the white wedding I just make lobola to her family so that is why she is allowed to stay with my family but I still want to marry her to be my wife. She is my wife but I need to finish everything to be my wife because when you love the girl you must also show that girl that you love her and you can do anything for her. The bible says we must...Paul said quoting him ... we as men we were not supposed to have wives or to stay with the women but because of the feelings we must just marry one woman so that we can do the houses and so we can do the ploughing. So I just want to show my wife that I love her and she proved to me that she is good and her family is good and then I believe that we will be together until we die.
AV: We will come back about this but before ... I just want to ask you about your dad and your mum. In terms of the community you know in certain families there are different levels of respect and so forth - how did your family fit in the broader community here in Maandagshoek? Were they well respected ...your father?
EM: Yes, as you know especially the culture of Bapedi your father is my father so I believe he was getting respect from everybody. And even if my father was not spending time in Maandagshoek because he was always out to work to take care for his family, so the family of Makgoga and my father was given respect from the community ... even now the family of Makgoga is still given respect from everybody in Maandagshoek.
AV: It's just because of who your father was or is it just because this is how the Bapedi relate to each other?
EM: I believe that is because of the whole respect of the Bapedi and also the way my father he was or the way the family of Makgoga, they were - because my father was simple like everybody in Maandagshoek. And then he was, as I know he was not doing bad things to everybody and even now my mother did not do anything bad to anybody. They are open and then feeling to help other families, they are feeling bad when other people they are involved in bad things. So I believe the issue of Bapedi, the culture of the Bapedi is still going on in the Bapedi province or Ga-Sekhukhune so that is why they are still having respect for everybody.
AV: And then just to turn the question around. In this community what kind of family wouldn't be respected, what kind of man would the community look down upon?
EM: Ahmed, when you are bad, I don't know if how can I say ... when I'm saying people they are bad, especially when you are proud. Let's say you are blessed, you are owning shops or taxis I mean that when I'm saying when you are blessed because you are having something in your pocket, you are different to other people. And then if you are proud and then you are not helping other people, the first thing that the community is going to do they will take you as proud and then you are not taking care of the others from the community. So I'm telling you they will pretend as you pretend because you are not helping them and then they are not going to love you.
AV: Ok let me just come back to another thing that you have said. You were saying when you got married you just did the lobola not white wedding... that word 'white wedding' - I think I know what you are mean but maybe just clarify?
EM: When I'm talking about the white wedding you know this thing of the rings and other stuff its just an entertainments for the culture of Bapedi ... it is the rings of the white people. That is why we are calling it the white wedding and then these things of signing in the court saying we will be together for the rest of our lives and when we are saying for the property...
DM: In community of property.
EM: Ja you see, this thing of property and this thing of we will be together so that is the issue that is coming with the white people. According to the culture of Bapedi we are saying a man is a man in the family/house and then he is taking responsibility for everything. Meaning if I buy the sofa the sofa belongs to me so woman can pack her stuff and go back to her home and she is not getting anything but at this moment, we are sharing. So we are going 50/50 we have to go to court and the court saying you have signed here and you said you will divorce your wife when you die and you are still alive now meaning you are not behind your words so you are taking 50/50 ... so that thing is just coming in with bourgeois. (All Laughing).
AV: And yourself, what do you think about the difference between the kind of traditional Bapedi wedding and what you call the white wedding? Is it just the issue of property?
EM: Ja and then...when you are doing the white wedding you will spend, meaning that you see when... you buy different things. You still going to buy a ring and it's too expensive and then the wines and then you got the cakes to make for the people and you still need to have different stuff. You are still going to get the tables and ... I mean you will spend. And then when you do the wedding as your culture the Bapedi you just send the people and you can just give them 8 000 Rand if I don't have the cattle's for my wife because usually we are not using the money. You can just take 2 Goats, 2 Sheeps, 2 Cows and 2 Donkeys if I have and then I have to get my wife. But at this time you have to get cash, let say 8 000/6 000 and I just sent the people and say I have just asked my wife to come and stay with me.
AV: Then if let's say I want to get to the Bapedi woman ...do they prefer cash or in most cases livestock?
EM: You see now people they are not farming anymore, people they are no longer having cattle's anymore so they will prefer cash from you.
AV: Alright just on this issue of the wedding, it is an interesting one for me because you met your wife in church and which I imagine would be a Christian church?
EM: Yes.
AV: How does the church wedding relate to either the traditional or the white wedding?
EM: The church wedding is the same as the white wedding.
AV: Ok.
EM: Ja because also the church is against the culture of the Bapedi because they are now following the bible. So the bible is coming also with the white people so but I don't want to cheat in the bible and other stuff. The bible is coming with the whites and also the wedding of the church is coming with the whites.
AV: In your life ... and I know I'm getting a little bit personal and at any point that I'm too personal you can tell me and you don't answer ... but in your life what then is so important in so far as you are a church going man but also you are a traditional Bapedi man as you were saying that at times there is tension between the two. In your life what's more important, which one is more important to do?
EM: For me what I think is very important. If I can think to take the culture is very important for me, if I can think to take the white wedding or the Christian wedding then is right for me. So why I'm saying it is important for me so for everybody what he thinks is important for him. So it's depending on what I think ... but from my side I like my culture and I'm also liking things to be changed. You see, so I can take the white wedding and also I can take the culture of Bapedi so maybe if I can join these two things I can make something better.
DM: Ok we are just going back into the first interview ... just tell us a little bit more about growing up here, like growing up as a kid in the Free State and then you said you just came in Maandagshoek after finishing standard 2 is that correct?
EM: Yes.
DM: So just tell us a little bit more about when you were growing up ... when you were a very small boy in that area?
EM: I was happy when I was growing up in the Free State because I was coming back only during Christmas time and then everybody wants to go to Joburg or Veereniging to visit. Then I was happy when I was going there because every year while my father was still working, there was a farewell, a party and then the children they were getting the presents there from the company - a watch, a car, motorbike just different things and those children that have passed at school they were getting different things to other children so it was good for me because there was different things that we can use to play. We were having different motorbikes and getting other things different. You see when I was here they are just playing soccer and going to the hills and going up and down hunting so it was difficult getting bicycles to go around.
AV: Just before that, you were born here in Maandagshoek?
EM: No.
AV: You were born in Veereniging?
EM: Yes in Veereniging.
AV: Ok, were both of your parents living in Veereniging at that time?
EM: There were just going monthly or in 2 months and then they were coming.
AV: So you were spending most of your time there in Veereniging?
EM: Yes, I was spending most of my time there because my mother agreed that I couldn't pronounce Sepedi the way I'm talking Sepedi now because if you see at Veereniging they are talking Southern Sotho. Sometimes people are saying Setswana so when I was going to Veereniging I was speaking that language so it would be difficult for me when I'm here to speak my mother tongue, Sepedi. She was also afraid that maybe I'm not going to speak Sepedi.
AV: Ok and then when you left Veereniging, why did you leave? Why did you move after standard 2 to come and attend school this side?
EM: I don't know the reason but I think my parents decided that I must come back home.
AV: And then your mum - was your mum staying here?
EM: No she was going on the holiday.
DM: What did you as a child? Where did you like most - was it in the urban area or was it in the rural area?
EM: When I was still young I was feeling that I must be in the urban area.
DM: That was more exciting for you?
EM: Yes really it was exciting for me because there was different things going up and down there, there was movement. Here you see, most people like to say people who are from urban areas they are different from the people who had grown up at the rural areas. When they are talking because there are mix - there are Zulus, Xhosas and white people - they learn other thongs quickly and other things from different people. So here now we are just Bapedi, we are just doing the same thing that other people Bapedi they are doing, so there is no difference. So other people they think that those people who are growing at urban areas they are learning different things than the people who are staying at the rural areas as one family, as one mission.
AV: When I was a kid I moved around a lot, every time I moved to the new area I got into trouble with the boys from the area. Was it difficult to move here from Veereniging? Like how did you just fit in when you came here, considering that you were a boy from the town?
EM: Ja but I was not moving alone I was always moving with my brothers and my parents. Ja but sometimes when we were playing around here we were getting tough time with other boys you see, saying they are from the rural areas and they are the Pedi and Pedi are so blind. So I was like fighting, so when you are growing up you have to meet that situation you see.
AV: You were saying that your mother was afraid you were not going to speak the Bapedi properly ... when you came was your accent a little bit funny?
EM: Laughing.
AV: When you were saying your mother was afraid that you are not going to speak Pedi, did you find it difficult to understand?
EM: Ja it was difficult because they will say what are you saying or they will say you think you are clever or powerful about other languages that we are talking and I was not just doing because I wanted to do that it was because I spend a lot of time at Veereniging. So I was using that Southern Sotho rather than my language. Because even in the house my father sometimes he was not talking in our language because he is usually there and he is talking that Southern Sotho and when I go out I had to use Southern Sotho and then when I'm in the house I forget and started to use other words of the Southern Sotho, you see.
AV: You know you were saying earlier that your father was well respected here in the community of Maandagshoek?
EM: Yes.
AV: Within the white world in Veereniging and so forth was he well respected there?
EM: At the camp where they were staying he was well respected by the people ... he was respecting other people. But he was always complaining about when he was from the work, he was saying there is a white guy at the work who is treating him as a child and then my father was cooking and when he is finished cooking he can take the food to the ... I can use the word baas, even if it is not ... baas means boss. He was making food for those people, he was making cake, chocolate and then other stuffs. And then that guy he was just coming to take those foods to the bosses as he is the one who did that and then he was treating my father like that because of my father's colour. He was not believing that my father can do those things that can be done by the white people. So my father was doing that and he was always complaining that he was treating him like a child, he is treating him because of his colour and we were just obeying what he is saying just because he was a white guy. And then my father want to get paid at the end of the month and then he wants to feed his children, so until we grow up like that about my father being treated like a child ... but at the camp where they were staying he was getting respects.
AV: One of my last questions from your child hood ... one of the things that interested me about the last interview. When you were a kid, you must have been 9/10 years old in the 80s, you were talking about the struggle and you always wanted to be part of it even if other boys chased you away to go home you are too small. At that time what did you think it was all about?
EM: What do you mean?
AV: Like you know when you saw people toyi-toying outside or the so called struggle as a young man you always wanted to be part of ... what did you think the struggle was against and for ...as a young boy?
EM: I was also participating in the struggle even if they were chasing me saying I'm still young. But the songs that our parents and my brothers were singing they were demanding the release of the former black President Dr. Nelson Mandela. So we were aware that the black people they were oppressed even if I was still young I know that the black people they were the enemies of the white people. And then I was aware that this up and down, the toyi-toyis it was because of the black President that was arrested and then people demanding the release of the president ... and also they were singing that we need freedom and also the name of Pretoria was flying in the songs of our brothers as if Pretoria is the bad city - for the black people - is where the apartheid is from.
DM: One quick question about your father, did your father cook for you?
EM: Ja.
DM: It was just because he was a chef right?
EM: Yes, he was cooking when he was off, when he was not going to work. He was saying my mother can sit down and then he will cook for us. Even if on the holidays here he would cook for us. He would fry chips because is what is available here, he can buy fish and try to cook for us and then he can try to make sweets here in Christmas we can share the sweets.
DM: So that is very unusual when the man is doing the coking isn't it ... in the house?
EM: (Laughing) Ja. And then he was just loving and saying he is good.
DM: Just a follow up from the time in the 80s. Were there not - even if you were young - were there any divisions in this community in the 80s during the apartheid system - I know these areas were considered to be the part of the homeland system - between those who were cooperating with apartheid and those who were outside ... were there divisions here?
EM: Yes.
DM: How did you witness that as a teenager, as a young boy?
EM: I remember when I was still 10 years or something but in the 80s somewhere there to the 90s ... the people from Isaac's side, from chief Isaac by that time it was not Isaac I don't know his name but it was Isaac's father when he was still a leader and he was still alive and at this side Ralph's father he was a leader at Ga-Mamphahlane. So those families they were fighting by themselves and so there was a difference between this community on the chieftaincy, on the right chief and who is not the right chief, so that division at that time.
DM: When you were growing up were there no kids that you treated differently because they were seen to be part of families that were not in the struggle?
EM: What?
DM: Where there any ... you know when you are a child sometimes when you go out and look at others and you are saying we don't like you because you are not part of us?
EM: Yes, .I believe there was that treatment, even if I have never saw other people doing that ...but they were just saying like, Dale is from under chief Kgwete that is why he is behaving the way he is behaving and then Makgoga and Ahmed, they are doing that because they are supporting Lerutla or somebody, so I believe that treatment was there.
AV: Was the main aspect ... like if I say he is not part of us, was the main aspect of that people affiliating to different chiefs?
EM: Yes they were supporting and even not afraid to go and attend the meetings and then when the chief want to do something they were affiliating and then when they want to do farming they will go to the chief .. and then when they want to go to the government offices to do something they were getting the letter from the chief ... so they were not shy to go to the chief.
AV: Did any of the fighting between the chiefs have anything to do with the relationship of the chiefs to the homeland authority? Like of the two chiefs, either Isaac or Ralph's father, which one of them was recognised by the homeland authority as the right chief in Maandagshoek?
EM: Ralph's father by that time he was recognised by the government and I don't want to cheat on that issue maybe to say who was the right chief and who is the right chief now because there is still a problem in the province now and that problem is still going on. There is a Commission of who is the right chief so even if myself I know or what parents told me or what the community is saying and I just come to the media and Kgwete is the right chief, there is a commission. We must respect the commission until they answer who is the right chief.
AV: But traditionally - I know you are not allowed to say which one is right - but your family would be associated with these chiefs?
EM: Yes.
DM: The other thing that we didn't talk that much about Emmanuel was your high school days. You were a student here in Maandagshoek at the high school?
EM: Yes.
DM: By the time you were at high school, it was the early 90s right?
EM: Yes.
DM: So give us a sense of how high school was for you? What did you guys do? What did you do when you are a teenager at the school?
EM: At the school Dale, it was good when we meet different students from different villages and then because we were sharing the ideas. I was the captain of soccer team at the school and I also liked to talk about soccer at the school and by that time it was when the national team was still tough. Then Chiefs, Pirates and Sundowns they were also tough, so we were just always talking about that and even in the classes. You know when you are at school there is your favourite teachers, even myself I was having my favourite teachers. Even if I didn't tell them but they are my favourite teachers, even when they were coming to class, I was going to sit down and then my teacher is coming. And then it was because of his manner; it was because of the respect he was giving to the students. Other teachers, you know that other teachers they are from other provinces or they are from other villages, so they are staying in Maandagshoek at the cottages, at the rooms at the school and they will go around in Maandagshoek and myself I hate the teachers who are proposing to the children. I mean the students, the girls who are still attending the schools. I hate the teachers who are not teaching the children what they have to do in future and the reason why they are at the school. And the teachers who are proposing the students, the young girls that they are still attending they are going there with the advantage that they are teachers, really they will fall pregnant or they will look like they are better because they are in love with the teachers from the other children and it will be bad for other children. I am saying that if the teacher is in love with the children really that teacher is above the age of those children, so it is totally wrong. The teachers who I was friend to them are the teachers that teach and always encourage the children of what to do and especially those who are sticking to the bible. Bible is different pages and is somewhere the teachers were encouraging the students what to do until they finish the grade12. So really I was enjoying things while I was still going to school.
AV: Was there a lot of that? Were older teachers seducing young school girls?
EM: They were ...?
AV: Was there a lot of teachers seducing young girls in school?
EM: Ja 3 or 4 teachers.
AV: That's a lot?
EM: Yes that was a lot. And I remember one day when we were out taking the trip to somewhere and I told them but I'm still remembering even if I was drunk. I told them that they are taking advantage of proposing the children because they are the teachers, what they are doing is wrong for me, they not supposed to do that. I'm not saying that I wanted them to give a chance to propose to the children, I was saying that because it's really bad to me.
AV: How old were you when you started drinking?
EM: I started drinking when I was 13/14 years.
AV: That's very young ...was it very young for the other boys in the area to start drinking?
EM: For?
AV: Generally your friends, did they also started drinking at that age?
EM: Ja they started, I think people started drinking when they were 12 years. I started drinking when my father, he was drinking my father and then he was drinking the brandy and then when he was coming for the holiday he was coming with - in Afrikaans we are saying Pap Koos - and then sometimes he is sleeping and then I'm going to steal his brandy. He was coming with the silver; you know when he was in Veereniging he was just putting the money in the tin or in the cup and then when he's coming home he will come with the money and then he will give that money to us. And then it's where I'm getting money to buy some beers, then we meet with friends and put the money together and then we buy beer.
AV: You are a heavy drinker?
EM: Yes when I was 16/17, I was a heavy drinker.
AV: Do you mean everyday, every weekend?
EM: No I can say maybe every month and I have never drink during the week because also my brothers and my parents they didn't want me to drink.
DM: So what about when you were grown here as a teenager, was there drugs besides drinking? Were people smoking dagga?
EM: Ja because we are just next to the Noble mountain and myself I didn't even touch dagga and I don't know why because I was just like other people how they are living. So other people they are drinking and smoking dagga even people that were living in their yards they are ploughing dagga, so there is a lot of dagga here.
AV: Just a quick question. If your child started drinking at the age of 14 how would you feel?
EM: It's just that I'm having a daughter and I don't believe that girls can touch alcohol. But even if I was having a boy I was going to be against that because to me to drink is not good when you are still very young. When a child is above 18 years is where she or he can take the responsibilities, really she can decide what is the good and what is the bad.
DM: You were saying when you were growing up there was a little bit of drinking, dagga ... now after 1994 is there a change or is it the same ...drinking or smoking of dagga ... or are there other things now?
EM: Ja, it did change a little bit Dale, because people they are aware that when you start drinking very young your future is dead. They are aware now that if you smoke dagga you can lose your future or you can be mentally disturbed or you can be arrested by the police because that is against the law. So those people who are still doing that they are just few. People have realised by looking at the others, you can see that the person is still young but he looks old because he started to drink when he was still young. He is always having a BB and a newspaper in his pocket and dagga in his pocket. He is always behind older people looking for traditional beer. So you see his future is dead, those who are still doing, they are few.
AV: You know, we were speaking to the councillor asking about the 80s and he said there was withc-burning ... do you know of this?
EM: In the 80s?
AV: Ja.
EM: Yes, as I was saying to you that there was different people. People they were divided under this and also I have emphasised that the white people they were the enemy of the blacks. I remember the comrades from the same village let say in Sekhukhune they have burned the people and they have burned the towns in Burgersfort because that town was for the Indians and it was for the white people meaning that the white people they were supporting the old government and they were burning the people because they were saying those people are Izipimpi. So they are taking the information from the community to the police. So that's what was happening and it was happening by the reason that I'm telling you that they were taking the information from the community. And also this issue of the enemy of whites and blacks.
DM: One of the other things that you talked a lot about was that the police in this community they have not been related to the community, they treat the community badly. You talked about your own experiences, the protests and everything else and you said the police beat and tortured us. Can you just give us some examples about that, about these things? When you were saying they tortured ,what do you mean by that?
EM: I mean Dale, people get beaten and then people got shot without the reason. And when I'm saying without the reason is that people they are protecting their lands, people they have got the right to speak out if they are not happy. So the behaviour of the police they are just talking to our parents the way they like because they are having their weapons with them, guns and other spray. I'm saying they have tortured our people without the reason, they have beaten them without the reason and they have shot them without the reason. They said a lot of things ...for them to say that they are the police they can do what they want, they can arrest them. They arrested our people without the reason and other people. Dale they don't want to go to the jail, they are going to the jail just because the police abused them, so they have tortured our people, they have tortured our parents, they have tortured those people that they were arrested without the reason. You can't go to jail without a reason or because maybe they have been bought by other people who wanted those people to be arrested.
DM: Do any of these policemen involved in this conflict do they live in this community or they are just coming from outside?
EM: No they are just next to this community, they are from outside yes.
DM: So there is no policeman here in Maandagshoek?
EM: The guy who is a policeman is working in Burgersfort; he is not working here in Mmamoroke as a policeman.
DM: Do you think that is part of the reason? I mean in the older days is where they were bringing policemen from outside the community believing that they will be treated with respect because they don't know them ... whereas if you can have a police force that lives in the community, that would be the different thing?
EM: I don't think that is the reason, I think the reason is that the way they have treated us is because of the whole police station ... is because of the way they are given the instructions, how they must treat the people of Maandagshoek. It is just instructions from the boss of the police station, they have instructed them to torture us the way they did. We believe that is because of somebody who is pushing the police to do that so it not the aim of the police because I think that they are well trained and then they know the job and know what to do. To make peace between the two parties, the aim of the police is not to cause the violence, is to make sure that every body is free and every body is safe in this country.
AV: So when you say someone is pushing them, can you clarify what you mean?
EM: Yes without a fear I can do that because most of the cases that are flying and we know what businesses is going on in the country. Most of the people they are facing the charges because of the corruption, because of bribery, because of looking something in his pocket, but I'm not pointing fingers to some body I'm just talking generally - people they are getting something from other people. If you look now the community of Maandagshoek is fighting the mines in this village and we know that when you are talking about the mines we are talking about the money, a lot of money ... platinum is doing a lot of money, gold is doing a lot of money, chrome is doing a lot of money ... any others are doing a lot of money. So when Patrice Motsepe talks everybody is listening in this country, in this province everybody is listening ... when Anglo American talks everybody is listening including the police they are listening what Patrice Motsepe is saying, what Anglo American is saying and then they will follow what those people are saying even if they say they jump the wall they will fall secretly, like they arrest people, they beat people secretly.
AV: I was reading in the newspaper that since the last time that we were here, the mines have hired a whole lot of ex-mercenary soldiers who have now set up a camp here?
EM: Yes that is true, there is a foreign, I can call them a foreign security because they are not talking our language, they are not from this country, they are from outside of the country. It is true the mines they have hired the security to come to force ... to drain our land. I mean that because those people they are well armed, they are with dogs, firearms, teargas everything they got in their camps. And then those people they are dangerous, they are not free, they are not friendly for our people, they are abusing our people - I will explain of you want me to explain that - Then they are threatening them and they are doing everything that they want and then we are also experiencing the strength of those security in the family of man and woman, so there is a problem that we are facing now because of that security. And we don't need security in our country, we don't need foreign security in our country to come to resolve our problems, we can resolve our problems ourselves together as South Africans. But because of the business, because of this game of business going up and down, because of the weak politician in our country, because of the people who are not following the rules of this country, those people we are saying to them that they have to follow the rule of this country, they mustn't do things more than the way the rule of this country says.
AV: Ok when you said that they are abusing people - can you clarify that?
EM: Yes if you read that article clearly there is somewhere where we indicated that they are forcing the young girls, they are proposing the young girls meaning they are forcing them to be in love with them. And then they are also threatening our parents when they catch them going around getting green grass; they are forcing the cattle towards the wrong directions where a man knows where there is a green grass or proper grass. They are with dogs and are threatening the community with dogs and going into the yards without asking the permission of anybody. When you ask them they will tell you that they are getting the permission from the chief. In this country, the President of this country is not allowed to take decisions on behalf of this country until he gets the advice of the persons living in this country/community. So just imagine until the person from the chief who is staying in the village telling the people they must come to the community to drill without giving the people a cent. No there is the issue of relocating the people - it's where now the fight is going to start. The issue - where the security they are staying - is going to be the big issue. And take in mind that we are not refusing to return while those security are doing what they are doing. We know how our parents have fought the old government, we are having the MK veterans, they are still in the villages. We can ask them to fight what those foreign security are doing. Those MK comrades, they are not happy because really, we don't need those foreign security to solve our problems - we can do it ourselves. We can do without anybody from outside the country.
DM: One other question ... it has to do with the role of security. You have talked about how the police have become, in some ways, active around particular agenda's. But, in terms of basic safety and security of this community ... normal crime issues ... how do you feel, do feel safe here?
EM: You mean that we are protected by the police?
DM: That' it .. and if not, why?
EM: We are not. We feel we are not protected by the police. The first example is after this security have come, they have beat the people, they have shot the people. We opened the cases against those security but those security have never been arrested by the police even if though they have come to see the incident. Those securities they were also threatening the police, they told the police that they could fight the police; they can shoot them if they want to fight. So we feel that really the police are refusing to arrest those securities, the police are afraid of that security. We feel that we are not protected because people would come and do anything they want in this village. So we are saying that we are not and the police they are not doing their duties, so we need to be protected. The song of the ANC says that we need safety and security for all in this country, safety for all not for minority people. If we could go to the Premier you will see he is enjoying the luxury blue lights. So if they see the President is coming you will see the blue lights and police that will be protecting. So we are the people on the ground level they are not getting the same protecting ... we voted for them to be there so we need to be protected as well.
DM: What about just normal crime in this community? Is there a problem -not with the foreign security as you call them - but just normal people here?
EM: You mean against the securities?
DM: No, let's say armed robbery, someone breaking into a home?
EM: Let me state it clear. The people of Maandagshoek they are very very quiet. I mean that...yes there is young guys who can steal your cell phone, who can steal your money, but maybe just because you left you cell phone while you were sitting there, they are stealing it because they have not found you. But now after the mine comes in Maandagshoek really the crime is going up. The reason for that crime in Maandagshoek, where we are sitting is the mine. We now have izinyoka, people that are stealing cables. And then people will steal others cell phones in the pockets and also threaten them with weapons is because of the mine. We feel that this crime is going up because of the mine. When the mine came here we thought that all these nonsense small crimes, all this poverty will be finished, so thinking there was going to be no crime anymore, people they were just going to be employed in the mine. But what we have been promised is a lie, there is no employment for the local people, so that is why people they go to the mine and steal the cables, so that is why people they just go to the mine to try to steal other things ... something, a fence just to sell and buy something to eat. So it is not the intention of the community to do crime. We did got the promise from the mine that they will employ the people, so now they are people who are from outside the village working in the mines of Maandagshoek whereas the people are still looking for a job, they just go up and down here. I still that is the road to look for the money that is to search the people, to steal the cars and rob people of their cell phones, stealing the cables.
DM: We are shifting now just to more recent things. What do you think about the recent development in the ruling party, the ANC ... the last 6 months, all the things that have changed. Have they had any impact here in the community or on the kind of job that you do as a community activist.
EM: Do you mean after...
DM: Ja, after Polokwane basically?
EM: There is no something changed and after the elections in Limpopo. But from my side I think they should be a change very soon by the new leaders of the ANC. Comrade JZ, Kgalema Motlanthe, the secretary Gwede Mantashe, Baleka Mbete and Phosa, I believe that they will make changes in the country , especially those people in Limpopo, the landless people, the mine issue where the mines they are just dumping the people's land without giving them a cent. I was so happy to hear the secretary of the ANC yesterday saying Gwede Mantashe saying the unions they must protect the workers, I was happy for the leader to say that, meaning that they want a better life for the people and also for the workers. So I think he is a great man and he is not biased to anybody, he is not in somebody's pocket, he is speaking alone that the unions must protect the workers because now the mines they just want to retrench the people because of the issue of electricity. Then he did indicate that they have mentioned last year that they are on the road to see how they are going to retrench people. We don't want people to be retrenched we want people to be employed. So the government is on the issue of how people they could get employment, so we can see the rate of crime, poverty going down but the mines want to use the issue of electricity to retrench the workers. I support Gwede Mantashe when he is saying Eskom and the government they must see how can they solve the problem because we want people to work and do what they do everyday and get payment and that their family, they can grow up.
Minutes 1:20:39 END OF AHP_MAA_MokgogaEmmanuel_20080224a Emmanuel Mokgoga; 2008-02-24a: 1
Date of interview: 2008-02-24
Location of interview: Maandagshoek, Limpopo
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Emmanuel Mokgoga
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_MAA_MokgogaEmmanuel_20080224a SECOND INTERVIEW WITH EMMANUEL MOKGOGA (Part 1)
Dale McKinley (DM): Ok this is just a continuation of our first interview with Emmanuel Mogoga and we are here in Maandagshoek. Today is the 27th of February 2008 and we are speaking to Emmanuel as we continue on a more in-depth interview. First of all thanks Emmanuel once again for making yourself available.
Emmanuel Mokgoga (EM): You are welcome Dale.
DM: What we want to do is we want to find out more about your family and we talked very briefly in our first interview about that, so feel free to tell us whatever you want. First of all let's talk about your father. Tell us a little bit more about your father - what kind of a man was he? What was...do you remember?
EM: Yes I'm still remembering because he passed away in 1992 and then he was working at Veereniging, at the place called Marcufflene. He was a chef, just next to the Lingual river. And he was a good father like other fathers in this country because if you can see now we are six in the family and we are only having one sister and she is the first one and there are 5 brothers. She is much effectiveness ... and my brother, the first brother in the men is working in the hospital. He is the one who is ordering the food in the hospital; I don't know what they call him.
DM: Which hospital?
EM: In Dilokong hospital.
DM: Ok.
EM: And then ... other 3 brothers they are working in the mines. And then I really believe that he was a good father and we have grown up under his law or under his responsibilities because he was working far and then taking responsibilities of my mother and the children also. I knew that there was my first brother called Lawrence. He was not talking himself ... I don't know how can I talk that but he was not talking by himself.
DM: Was he disabled?
EM: Yes disabled and then he passed away in 1976. He was working at Sowetan in Joburg and he was staying in Soweto. And even today we don't know where they have buried him and it was that time of strikes - everybody going up and down during the apartheid taking place and he was killed by the people. I still remember there was a photo where he was lying down and then there was a lot of blood where he lying. Sometimes I used to think that my father thought about that and he died and he don't know were his son is at this moment, who buried him? He doesn't know the cause of the incident , why he was killed. And then I'm thinking that my mother and my father they are also thinking about it because he was also disabled and how he was screaming about that incident happening and I tried to attach with the Scorpions and try to investigate the death of my brother and also trying to ask my parents. My brothers it's seems ... I don't want to use these words ... maybe my brothers they don't care it's just maybe they don't have the same pain that I'm having in my heart about my brother. Because if you can see now Dale, everyone how their parents they have been dying or how their brothers, so I also feel that one day I must investigate and find the bones of my brother and we take the bones of my brother and then we give him the respect by everybody and bury him. I think if we can do that with my brothers and sisters before my mother she can die, I don't say my mother she must die but everybody who lives in the world we believe that we will die. The person who was born by the woman or a man his or her days are counted when the days are over you die and my mother she is still going to die. I think that before she could die I would be happy if we have found the bones or we can find where my brother he was buried.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): Can I ask something about your brother. When you are saying people killed him, do you know who or you don't?
EM: Yes I don't know who killed my brother and because of the blood and there were police from Joburg - they sent the message to the other police stations ... they then explained to my mother and my father. They told them, my parents, that my brother is killed and they showed my parents the photo. He was lying down and there was blood meaning that they have done something to him - that is why there was blood.
AV: And just coming back to your father, was he born in Maandagshoek?
EM: No my father was born at the place called Skirnoord, I don't know if you know the place somewhere in Jane Furse at the place called Masethleng and I don't know when they came in Maandagshoek, in the 50s for sure, and they came in Maandagshoek. They were staying at the hills there and they came to build the house here.
AV: So he came with your mum already?
EM: Yes.
AV: He was already married?
EM: Yes, he was already married my mother.
AV: And your mum's family do you know were are they from?
EM: They are from the same place at Jane Furse and I think they were together from that time and then that it why we are still with my mother, you see.
DM: Besides the brother that died that you mentioned, all your brothers and sisters are still living?
EM: Yes.
DM: You said the three brothers are working in the mines, are they in this area or which mines?
EM: Yes my brother his name is Charles is working at Modikwe and the guy who is coming after Charles his name is Gabriel he is working at Marula and the guy who is called Simon he is working at Modikwe. I'm coming after Simon they are just near Maandagshoek. You know Marula its just near us and also Modikwe is just on our farms.
AV: And your brother who passed, was he the first born?
EM: Yes he was the first born.
AV: And then what does that mean, I know when we were here last time you were saying to me that because you are a last born it means that it is your duty to take care of your parents?
EM: Yes.
AV: What are the responsibilities of the first born?
EM: We know that when you are a first born Ahmed you will be proud because your parents' will be proud of taking care of you especially when you are a first born and they want to make sure that everything you need you got. And then when you beginning to be a man, doing things on your own and then maybe let say you will be lucky to work, you like to be like your parents, the children that are coming after you or behind you need to take the responsibility that their parents were giving to you. So I think you will be proud and if your parents they have never worked, they never got the chance to build the house, they never got the chance to buy goods in your. If you are working or educated I don't want to use the word educated .. if maybe you are going up and down and seeing things, especially if you are staying in the rural areas, you will buy things that they have never bought. So when you are a first born you must be proud and then take the responsibility for your parents and also for your younger brothers and sisters.
DM: And as the last born, your mother stays here with you?
EM: Yes.
DM: Tell us a little bit about your mother. Obviously you have got a very close relationship with her?
EM: Yes my mother she is good for me and I believe and for everybody because since I was born she never never want me to do bad things. She always wants me to do good things and then she encouraged me to love other people. I am happy because in this family when somebody do wrong thing or good things, she is calling us and say you see what Simon is doing is bad and then when Simon or Gabriel is doing good things tomorrow she calling us again and say what Simon is doing is good. So, meaning that we are equal because we are all her children. So there is no any difference to my mother and then she is encouraging all of us to do good things. So I praise her as a hero because she meets different challenges in the country. One day I was checking on his box where he puts his ID and cards and then I saw where the police wrote on the letter that she must ... I don't know what was happening when you were going to the urban area and how long are you going to stay in Veereniging or in Joburg. They wrote them a letter that if she is not coming back by that time she will be arrested and my mother told me that she never came back by that time and she was arrested and stayed in the prison. And then I was just thinking myself that how was a prison at that time and then how was my mum at that time in jail in that apartheid because they were just beating everybody outside but how was my mother because she was in the prison. So I was thinking about that because I was also arrested one day and I was just thinking that how she was in prison as young as she was.
AV: And how did it make you feel?
EM: I feel bad but Ahmed, there is nothing I can do, it's just for me when I'm watching the TV or when I'm watching the disc for the struggle especially when I'm watching the film of Sarafina. When I'm watching about Mzwake singing about the black people, where are they coming from, I'm just next to the tears sometimes but I feel like to carry out the gun and go out and revenge for my parents and for that people who were fighting for democracy. But I have just said there is nothing that I can do and it's better that I stop thinking about this, it's better if I stop to watch the film of Sarafina or is better to stop to watch the drums of Mzwake you see, or to stop watching other activities.
AV: And your mum how did she feel about if? How did she tell you about going to jail?
EM: I didn't ask my mother a lot of questions about how it was in the jail and so I just think how it is to be in the jail because I'm still young and when I think about this story I'm next to the tears sometimes.
DM: And just...your own family now. We didn't even talk too much about your partner or your wife, about your family ... tell us anything that you want to tell us?
EM: The name of my wife is Grace Komane. She is from Jane Furse at the place called Ga-Molepane. I met Grace at Veereniging, she was staying at Vanderbilpark and then she was attending school at the college at Vanderbilpark. And I met Grace at the church; we were attending the same church. And I was the secretary at the church that I was attending with Grace. So she was traveling from Vanderbilpark to Sasolburg and I needed time to speak with Grace about love. I was not having the chance to speak to Grace because she was attending the church and then after the church she was going to the taxi rank, sometimes I was busy reading the books with the Pastor. I was even refusing to ask Grace for her numbers - where I could contact her so we can talk.
AV: Were you shy?
EM: No I was not shy, I was just respecting my Pastor and everybody in the church. One day it happened that one of the members of the church died and I was called by the Pastor to call others and the name of Grace was called and I asked the numbers of Grace to call her. So the Pastor gave me the phones and then I called Grace but I did not talk to her because she didn't have the phone. So I left the message and then she phoned back then it's where I started to communicate with Grace. After talking about the death of the member of the church I started my own personal issues. So it's when we started visiting and talk about the issues until she finished at the school and then she came to Sasolburg and started to live with me. To me Grace is a good lady. What I did now is I married her as my wife but I didn't make the white wedding I just make lobola to her family so that is why she is allowed to stay with my family but I still want to marry her to be my wife. She is my wife but I need to finish everything to be my wife because when you love the girl you must also show that girl that you love her and you can do anything for her. The bible says we must...Paul said quoting him ... we as men we were not supposed to have wives or to stay with the women but because of the feelings we must just marry one woman so that we can do the houses and so we can do the ploughing. So I just want to show my wife that I love her and she proved to me that she is good and her family is good and then I believe that we will be together until we die.
AV: We will come back about this but before ... I just want to ask you about your dad and your mum. In terms of the community you know in certain families there are different levels of respect and so forth - how did your family fit in the broader community here in Maandagshoek? Were they well respected ...your father?
EM: Yes, as you know especially the culture of Bapedi your father is my father so I believe he was getting respect from everybody. And even if my father was not spending time in Maandagshoek because he was always out to work to take care for his family, so the family of Makgoga and my father was given respect from the community ... even now the family of Makgoga is still given respect from everybody in Maandagshoek.
AV: It's just because of who your father was or is it just because this is how the Bapedi relate to each other?
EM: I believe that is because of the whole respect of the Bapedi and also the way my father he was or the way the family of Makgoga, they were - because my father was simple like everybody in Maandagshoek. And then he was, as I know he was not doing bad things to everybody and even now my mother did not do anything bad to anybody. They are open and then feeling to help other families, they are feeling bad when other people they are involved in bad things. So I believe the issue of Bapedi, the culture of the Bapedi is still going on in the Bapedi province or Ga-Sekhukhune so that is why they are still having respect for everybody.
AV: And then just to turn the question around. In this community what kind of family wouldn't be respected, what kind of man would the community look down upon?
EM: Ahmed, when you are bad, I don't know if how can I say ... when I'm saying people they are bad, especially when you are proud. Let's say you are blessed, you are owning shops or taxis I mean that when I'm saying when you are blessed because you are having something in your pocket, you are different to other people. And then if you are proud and then you are not helping other people, the first thing that the community is going to do they will take you as proud and then you are not taking care of the others from the community. So I'm telling you they will pretend as you pretend because you are not helping them and then they are not going to love you.
AV: Ok let me just come back to another thing that you have said. You were saying when you got married you just did the lobola not white wedding... that word 'white wedding' - I think I know what you are mean but maybe just clarify?
EM: When I'm talking about the white wedding you know this thing of the rings and other stuff its just an entertainments for the culture of Bapedi ... it is the rings of the white people. That is why we are calling it the white wedding and then these things of signing in the court saying we will be together for the rest of our lives and when we are saying for the property...
DM: In community of property.
EM: Ja you see, this thing of property and this thing of we will be together so that is the issue that is coming with the white people. According to the culture of Bapedi we are saying a man is a man in the family/house and then he is taking responsibility for everything. Meaning if I buy the sofa the sofa belongs to me so woman can pack her stuff and go back to her home and she is not getting anything but at this moment, we are sharing. So we are going 50/50 we have to go to court and the court saying you have signed here and you said you will divorce your wife when you die and you are still alive now meaning you are not behind your words so you are taking 50/50 ... so that thing is just coming in with bourgeois. (All Laughing).
AV: And yourself, what do you think about the difference between the kind of traditional Bapedi wedding and what you call the white wedding? Is it just the issue of property?
EM: Ja and then...when you are doing the white wedding you will spend, meaning that you see when... you buy different things. You still going to buy a ring and it's too expensive and then the wines and then you got the cakes to make for the people and you still need to have different stuff. You are still going to get the tables and ... I mean you will spend. And then when you do the wedding as your culture the Bapedi you just send the people and you can just give them 8 000 Rand if I don't have the cattle's for my wife because usually we are not using the money. You can just take 2 Goats, 2 Sheeps, 2 Cows and 2 Donkeys if I have and then I have to get my wife. But at this time you have to get cash, let say 8 000/6 000 and I just sent the people and say I have just asked my wife to come and stay with me.
AV: Then if let's say I want to get to the Bapedi woman ...do they prefer cash or in most cases livestock?
EM: You see now people they are not farming anymore, people they are no longer having cattle's anymore so they will prefer cash from you.
AV: Alright just on this issue of the wedding, it is an interesting one for me because you met your wife in church and which I imagine would be a Christian church?
EM: Yes.
AV: How does the church wedding relate to either the traditional or the white wedding?
EM: The church wedding is the same as the white wedding.
AV: Ok.
EM: Ja because also the church is against the culture of the Bapedi because they are now following the bible. So the bible is coming also with the white people so but I don't want to cheat in the bible and other stuff. The bible is coming with the whites and also the wedding of the church is coming with the whites.
AV: In your life ... and I know I'm getting a little bit personal and at any point that I'm too personal you can tell me and you don't answer ... but in your life what then is so important in so far as you are a church going man but also you are a traditional Bapedi man as you were saying that at times there is tension between the two. In your life what's more important, which one is more important to do?
EM: For me what I think is very important. If I can think to take the culture is very important for me, if I can think to take the white wedding or the Christian wedding then is right for me. So why I'm saying it is important for me so for everybody what he thinks is important for him. So it's depending on what I think ... but from my side I like my culture and I'm also liking things to be changed. You see, so I can take the white wedding and also I can take the culture of Bapedi so maybe if I can join these two things I can make something better.
DM: Ok we are just going back into the first interview ... just tell us a little bit more about growing up here, like growing up as a kid in the Free State and then you said you just came in Maandagshoek after finishing standard 2 is that correct?
EM: Yes.
DM: So just tell us a little bit more about when you were growing up ... when you were a very small boy in that area?
EM: I was happy when I was growing up in the Free State because I was coming back only during Christmas time and then everybody wants to go to Joburg or Veereniging to visit. Then I was happy when I was going there because every year while my father was still working, there was a farewell, a party and then the children they were getting the presents there from the company - a watch, a car, motorbike just different things and those children that have passed at school they were getting different things to other children so it was good for me because there was different things that we can use to play. We were having different motorbikes and getting other things different. You see when I was here they are just playing soccer and going to the hills and going up and down hunting so it was difficult getting bicycles to go around.
AV: Just before that, you were born here in Maandagshoek?
EM: No.
AV: You were born in Veereniging?
EM: Yes in Veereniging.
AV: Ok, were both of your parents living in Veereniging at that time?
EM: There were just going monthly or in 2 months and then they were coming.
AV: So you were spending most of your time there in Veereniging?
EM: Yes, I was spending most of my time there because my mother agreed that I couldn't pronounce Sepedi the way I'm talking Sepedi now because if you see at Veereniging they are talking Southern Sotho. Sometimes people are saying Setswana so when I was going to Veereniging I was speaking that language so it would be difficult for me when I'm here to speak my mother tongue, Sepedi. She was also afraid that maybe I'm not going to speak Sepedi.
AV: Ok and then when you left Veereniging, why did you leave? Why did you move after standard 2 to come and attend school this side?
EM: I don't know the reason but I think my parents decided that I must come back home.
AV: And then your mum - was your mum staying here?
EM: No she was going on the holiday.
DM: What did you as a child? Where did you like most - was it in the urban area or was it in the rural area?
EM: When I was still young I was feeling that I must be in the urban area.
DM: That was more exciting for you?
EM: Yes really it was exciting for me because there was different things going up and down there, there was movement. Here you see, most people like to say people who are from urban areas they are different from the people who had grown up at the rural areas. When they are talking because there are mix - there are Zulus, Xhosas and white people - they learn other thongs quickly and other things from different people. So here now we are just Bapedi, we are just doing the same thing that other people Bapedi they are doing, so there is no difference. So other people they think that those people who are growing at urban areas they are learning different things than the people who are staying at the rural areas as one family, as one mission.
AV: When I was a kid I moved around a lot, every time I moved to the new area I got into trouble with the boys from the area. Was it difficult to move here from Veereniging? Like how did you just fit in when you came here, considering that you were a boy from the town?
EM: Ja but I was not moving alone I was always moving with my brothers and my parents. Ja but sometimes when we were playing around here we were getting tough time with other boys you see, saying they are from the rural areas and they are the Pedi and Pedi are so blind. So I was like fighting, so when you are growing up you have to meet that situation you see.
AV: You were saying that your mother was afraid you were not going to speak the Bapedi properly ... when you came was your accent a little bit funny?
EM: Laughing.
AV: When you were saying your mother was afraid that you are not going to speak Pedi, did you find it difficult to understand?
EM: Ja it was difficult because they will say what are you saying or they will say you think you are clever or powerful about other languages that we are talking and I was not just doing because I wanted to do that it was because I spend a lot of time at Veereniging. So I was using that Southern Sotho rather than my language. Because even in the house my father sometimes he was not talking in our language because he is usually there and he is talking that Southern Sotho and when I go out I had to use Southern Sotho and then when I'm in the house I forget and started to use other words of the Southern Sotho, you see.
AV: You know you were saying earlier that your father was well respected here in the community of Maandagshoek?
EM: Yes.
AV: Within the white world in Veereniging and so forth was he well respected there?
EM: At the camp where they were staying he was well respected by the people ... he was respecting other people. But he was always complaining about when he was from the work, he was saying there is a white guy at the work who is treating him as a child and then my father was cooking and when he is finished cooking he can take the food to the ... I can use the word baas, even if it is not ... baas means boss. He was making food for those people, he was making cake, chocolate and then other stuffs. And then that guy he was just coming to take those foods to the bosses as he is the one who did that and then he was treating my father like that because of my father's colour. He was not believing that my father can do those things that can be done by the white people. So my father was doing that and he was always complaining that he was treating him like a child, he is treating him because of his colour and we were just obeying what he is saying just because he was a white guy. And then my father want to get paid at the end of the month and then he wants to feed his children, so until we grow up like that about my father being treated like a child ... but at the camp where they were staying he was getting respects.
AV: One of my last questions from your child hood ... one of the things that interested me about the last interview. When you were a kid, you must have been 9/10 years old in the 80s, you were talking about the struggle and you always wanted to be part of it even if other boys chased you away to go home you are too small. At that time what did you think it was all about?
EM: What do you mean?
AV: Like you know when you saw people toyi-toying outside or the so called struggle as a young man you always wanted to be part of ... what did you think the struggle was against and for ...as a young boy?
EM: I was also participating in the struggle even if they were chasing me saying I'm still young. But the songs that our parents and my brothers were singing they were demanding the release of the former black President Dr. Nelson Mandela. So we were aware that the black people they were oppressed even if I was still young I know that the black people they were the enemies of the white people. And then I was aware that this up and down, the toyi-toyis it was because of the black President that was arrested and then people demanding the release of the president ... and also they were singing that we need freedom and also the name of Pretoria was flying in the songs of our brothers as if Pretoria is the bad city - for the black people - is where the apartheid is from.
DM: One quick question about your father, did your father cook for you?
EM: Ja.
DM: It was just because he was a chef right?
EM: Yes, he was cooking when he was off, when he was not going to work. He was saying my mother can sit down and then he will cook for us. Even if on the holidays here he would cook for us. He would fry chips because is what is available here, he can buy fish and try to cook for us and then he can try to make sweets here in Christmas we can share the sweets.
DM: So that is very unusual when the man is doing the coking isn't it ... in the house?
EM: (Laughing) Ja. And then he was just loving and saying he is good.
DM: Just a follow up from the time in the 80s. Were there not - even if you were young - were there any divisions in this community in the 80s during the apartheid system - I know these areas were considered to be the part of the homeland system - between those who were cooperating with apartheid and those who were outside ... were there divisions here?
EM: Yes.
DM: How did you witness that as a teenager, as a young boy?
EM: I remember when I was still 10 years or something but in the 80s somewhere there to the 90s ... the people from Isaac's side, from chief Isaac by that time it was not Isaac I don't know his name but it was Isaac's father when he was still a leader and he was still alive and at this side Ralph's father he was a leader at Ga-Mamphahlane. So those families they were fighting by themselves and so there was a difference between this community on the chieftaincy, on the right chief and who is not the right chief, so that division at that time.
DM: When you were growing up were there no kids that you treated differently because they were seen to be part of families that were not in the struggle?
EM: What?
DM: Where there any ... you know when you are a child sometimes when you go out and look at others and you are saying we don't like you because you are not part of us?
EM: Yes, .I believe there was that treatment, even if I have never saw other people doing that ...but they were just saying like, Dale is from under chief Kgwete that is why he is behaving the way he is behaving and then Makgoga and Ahmed, they are doing that because they are supporting Lerutla or somebody, so I believe that treatment was there.
AV: Was the main aspect ... like if I say he is not part of us, was the main aspect of that people affiliating to different chiefs?
EM: Yes they were supporting and even not afraid to go and attend the meetings and then when the chief want to do something they were affiliating and then when they want to do farming they will go to the chief .. and then when they want to go to the government offices to do something they were getting the letter from the chief ... so they were not shy to go to the chief.
AV: Did any of the fighting between the chiefs have anything to do with the relationship of the chiefs to the homeland authority? Like of the two chiefs, either Isaac or Ralph's father, which one of them was recognised by the homeland authority as the right chief in Maandagshoek?
EM: Ralph's father by that time he was recognised by the government and I don't want to cheat on that issue maybe to say who was the right chief and who is the right chief now because there is still a problem in the province now and that problem is still going on. There is a Commission of who is the right chief so even if myself I know or what parents told me or what the community is saying and I just come to the media and Kgwete is the right chief, there is a commission. We must respect the commission until they answer who is the right chief.
AV: But traditionally - I know you are not allowed to say which one is right - but your family would be associated with these chiefs?
EM: Yes.
DM: The other thing that we didn't talk that much about Emmanuel was your high school days. You were a student here in Maandagshoek at the high school?
EM: Yes.
DM: By the time you were at high school, it was the early 90s right?
EM: Yes.
DM: So give us a sense of how high school was for you? What did you guys do? What did you do when you are a teenager at the school?
EM: At the school Dale, it was good when we meet different students from different villages and then because we were sharing the ideas. I was the captain of soccer team at the school and I also liked to talk about soccer at the school and by that time it was when the national team was still tough. Then Chiefs, Pirates and Sundowns they were also tough, so we were just always talking about that and even in the classes. You know when you are at school there is your favourite teachers, even myself I was having my favourite teachers. Even if I didn't tell them but they are my favourite teachers, even when they were coming to class, I was going to sit down and then my teacher is coming. And then it was because of his manner; it was because of the respect he was giving to the students. Other teachers, you know that other teachers they are from other provinces or they are from other villages, so they are staying in Maandagshoek at the cottages, at the rooms at the school and they will go around in Maandagshoek and myself I hate the teachers who are proposing to the children. I mean the students, the girls who are still attending the schools. I hate the teachers who are not teaching the children what they have to do in future and the reason why they are at the school. And the teachers who are proposing the students, the young girls that they are still attending they are going there with the advantage that they are teachers, really they will fall pregnant or they will look like they are better because they are in love with the teachers from the other children and it will be bad for other children. I am saying that if the teacher is in love with the children really that teacher is above the age of those children, so it is totally wrong. The teachers who I was friend to them are the teachers that teach and always encourage the children of what to do and especially those who are sticking to the bible. Bible is different pages and is somewhere the teachers were encouraging the students what to do until they finish the grade12. So really I was enjoying things while I was still going to school.
AV: Was there a lot of that? Were older teachers seducing young school girls?
EM: They were ...?
AV: Was there a lot of teachers seducing young girls in school?
EM: Ja 3 or 4 teachers.
AV: That's a lot?
EM: Yes that was a lot. And I remember one day when we were out taking the trip to somewhere and I told them but I'm still remembering even if I was drunk. I told them that they are taking advantage of proposing the children because they are the teachers, what they are doing is wrong for me, they not supposed to do that. I'm not saying that I wanted them to give a chance to propose to the children, I was saying that because it's really bad to me.
AV: How old were you when you started drinking?
EM: I started drinking when I was 13/14 years.
AV: That's very young ...was it very young for the other boys in the area to start drinking?
EM: For?
AV: Generally your friends, did they also started drinking at that age?
EM: Ja they started, I think people started drinking when they were 12 years. I started drinking when my father, he was drinking my father and then he was drinking the brandy and then when he was coming for the holiday he was coming with - in Afrikaans we are saying Pap Koos - and then sometimes he is sleeping and then I'm going to steal his brandy. He was coming with the silver; you know when he was in Veereniging he was just putting the money in the tin or in the cup and then when he's coming home he will come with the money and then he will give that money to us. And then it's where I'm getting money to buy some beers, then we meet with friends and put the money together and then we buy beer.
AV: You are a heavy drinker?
EM: Yes when I was 16/17, I was a heavy drinker.
AV: Do you mean everyday, every weekend?
EM: No I can say maybe every month and I have never drink during the week because also my brothers and my parents they didn't want me to drink.
DM: So what about when you were grown here as a teenager, was there drugs besides drinking? Were people smoking dagga?
EM: Ja because we are just next to the Noble mountain and myself I didn't even touch dagga and I don't know why because I was just like other people how they are living. So other people they are drinking and smoking dagga even people that were living in their yards they are ploughing dagga, so there is a lot of dagga here.
AV: Just a quick question. If your child started drinking at the age of 14 how would you feel?
EM: It's just that I'm having a daughter and I don't believe that girls can touch alcohol. But even if I was having a boy I was going to be against that because to me to drink is not good when you are still very young. When a child is above 18 years is where she or he can take the responsibilities, really she can decide what is the good and what is the bad.
DM: You were saying when you were growing up there was a little bit of drinking, dagga ... now after 1994 is there a change or is it the same ...drinking or smoking of dagga ... or are there other things now?
EM: Ja, it did change a little bit Dale, because people they are aware that when you start drinking very young your future is dead. They are aware now that if you smoke dagga you can lose your future or you can be mentally disturbed or you can be arrested by the police because that is against the law. So those people who are still doing that they are just few. People have realised by looking at the others, you can see that the person is still young but he looks old because he started to drink when he was still young. He is always having a BB and a newspaper in his pocket and dagga in his pocket. He is always behind older people looking for traditional beer. So you see his future is dead, those who are still doing, they are few.
AV: You know, we were speaking to the councillor asking about the 80s and he said there was withc-burning ... do you know of this?
EM: In the 80s?
AV: Ja.
EM: Yes, as I was saying to you that there was different people. People they were divided under this and also I have emphasised that the white people they were the enemy of the blacks. I remember the comrades from the same village let say in Sekhukhune they have burned the people and they have burned the towns in Burgersfort because that town was for the Indians and it was for the white people meaning that the white people they were supporting the old government and they were burning the people because they were saying those people are Izipimpi. So they are taking the information from the community to the police. So that's what was happening and it was happening by the reason that I'm telling you that they were taking the information from the community. And also this issue of the enemy of whites and blacks.
DM: One of the other things that you talked a lot about was that the police in this community they have not been related to the community, they treat the community badly. You talked about your own experiences, the protests and everything else and you said the police beat and tortured us. Can you just give us some examples about that, about these things? When you were saying they tortured ,what do you mean by that?
EM: I mean Dale, people get beaten and then people got shot without the reason. And when I'm saying without the reason is that people they are protecting their lands, people they have got the right to speak out if they are not happy. So the behaviour of the police they are just talking to our parents the way they like because they are having their weapons with them, guns and other spray. I'm saying they have tortured our people without the reason, they have beaten them without the reason and they have shot them without the reason. They said a lot of things ...for them to say that they are the police they can do what they want, they can arrest them. They arrested our people without the reason and other people. Dale they don't want to go to the jail, they are going to the jail just because the police abused them, so they have tortured our people, they have tortured our parents, they have tortured those people that they were arrested without the reason. You can't go to jail without a reason or because maybe they have been bought by other people who wanted those people to be arrested.
DM: Do any of these policemen involved in this conflict do they live in this community or they are just coming from outside?
EM: No they are just next to this community, they are from outside yes.
DM: So there is no policeman here in Maandagshoek?
EM: The guy who is a policeman is working in Burgersfort; he is not working here in Mmamoroke as a policeman.
DM: Do you think that is part of the reason? I mean in the older days is where they were bringing policemen from outside the community believing that they will be treated with respect because they don't know them ... whereas if you can have a police force that lives in the community, that would be the different thing?
EM: I don't think that is the reason, I think the reason is that the way they have treated us is because of the whole police station ... is because of the way they are given the instructions, how they must treat the people of Maandagshoek. It is just instructions from the boss of the police station, they have instructed them to torture us the way they did. We believe that is because of somebody who is pushing the police to do that so it not the aim of the police because I think that they are well trained and then they know the job and know what to do. To make peace between the two parties, the aim of the police is not to cause the violence, is to make sure that every body is free and every body is safe in this country.
AV: So when you say someone is pushing them, can you clarify what you mean?
EM: Yes without a fear I can do that because most of the cases that are flying and we know what businesses is going on in the country. Most of the people they are facing the charges because of the corruption, because of bribery, because of looking something in his pocket, but I'm not pointing fingers to some body I'm just talking generally - people they are getting something from other people. If you look now the community of Maandagshoek is fighting the mines in this village and we know that when you are talking about the mines we are talking about the money, a lot of money ... platinum is doing a lot of money, gold is doing a lot of money, chrome is doing a lot of money ... any others are doing a lot of money. So when Patrice Motsepe talks everybody is listening in this country, in this province everybody is listening ... when Anglo American talks everybody is listening including the police they are listening what Patrice Motsepe is saying, what Anglo American is saying and then they will follow what those people are saying even if they say they jump the wall they will fall secretly, like they arrest people, they beat people secretly.
AV: I was reading in the newspaper that since the last time that we were here, the mines have hired a whole lot of ex-mercenary soldiers who have now set up a camp here?
EM: Yes that is true, there is a foreign, I can call them a foreign security because they are not talking our language, they are not from this country, they are from outside of the country. It is true the mines they have hired the security to come to force ... to drain our land. I mean that because those people they are well armed, they are with dogs, firearms, teargas everything they got in their camps. And then those people they are dangerous, they are not free, they are not friendly for our people, they are abusing our people - I will explain of you want me to explain that - Then they are threatening them and they are doing everything that they want and then we are also experiencing the strength of those security in the family of man and woman, so there is a problem that we are facing now because of that security. And we don't need security in our country, we don't need foreign security in our country to come to resolve our problems, we can resolve our problems ourselves together as South Africans. But because of the business, because of this game of business going up and down, because of the weak politician in our country, because of the people who are not following the rules of this country, those people we are saying to them that they have to follow the rule of this country, they mustn't do things more than the way the rule of this country says.
AV: Ok when you said that they are abusing people - can you clarify that?
EM: Yes if you read that article clearly there is somewhere where we indicated that they are forcing the young girls, they are proposing the young girls meaning they are forcing them to be in love with them. And then they are also threatening our parents when they catch them going around getting green grass; they are forcing the cattle towards the wrong directions where a man knows where there is a green grass or proper grass. They are with dogs and are threatening the community with dogs and going into the yards without asking the permission of anybody. When you ask them they will tell you that they are getting the permission from the chief. In this country, the President of this country is not allowed to take decisions on behalf of this country until he gets the advice of the persons living in this country/community. So just imagine until the person from the chief who is staying in the village telling the people they must come to the community to drill without giving the people a cent. No there is the issue of relocating the people - it's where now the fight is going to start. The issue - where the security they are staying - is going to be the big issue. And take in mind that we are not refusing to return while those security are doing what they are doing. We know how our parents have fought the old government, we are having the MK veterans, they are still in the villages. We can ask them to fight what those foreign security are doing. Those MK comrades, they are not happy because really, we don't need those foreign security to solve our problems - we can do it ourselves. We can do without anybody from outside the country.
DM: One other question ... it has to do with the role of security. You have talked about how the police have become, in some ways, active around particular agenda's. But, in terms of basic safety and security of this community ... normal crime issues ... how do you feel, do feel safe here?
EM: You mean that we are protected by the police?
DM: That' it .. and if not, why?
EM: We are not. We feel we are not protected by the police. The first example is after this security have come, they have beat the people, they have shot the people. We opened the cases against those security but those security have never been arrested by the police even if though they have come to see the incident. Those securities they were also threatening the police, they told the police that they could fight the police; they can shoot them if they want to fight. So we feel that really the police are refusing to arrest those securities, the police are afraid of that security. We feel that we are not protected because people would come and do anything they want in this village. So we are saying that we are not and the police they are not doing their duties, so we need to be protected. The song of the ANC says that we need safety and security for all in this country, safety for all not for minority people. If we could go to the Premier you will see he is enjoying the luxury blue lights. So if they see the President is coming you will see the blue lights and police that will be protecting. So we are the people on the ground level they are not getting the same protecting ... we voted for them to be there so we need to be protected as well.
DM: What about just normal crime in this community? Is there a problem -not with the foreign security as you call them - but just normal people here?
EM: You mean against the securities?
DM: No, let's say armed robbery, someone breaking into a home?
EM: Let me state it clear. The people of Maandagshoek they are very very quiet. I mean that...yes there is young guys who can steal your cell phone, who can steal your money, but maybe just because you left you cell phone while you were sitting there, they are stealing it because they have not found you. But now after the mine comes in Maandagshoek really the crime is going up. The reason for that crime in Maandagshoek, where we are sitting is the mine. We now have izinyoka, people that are stealing cables. And then people will steal others cell phones in the pockets and also threaten them with weapons is because of the mine. We feel that this crime is going up because of the mine. When the mine came here we thought that all these nonsense small crimes, all this poverty will be finished, so thinking there was going to be no crime anymore, people they were just going to be employed in the mine. But what we have been promised is a lie, there is no employment for the local people, so that is why people they go to the mine and steal the cables, so that is why people they just go to the mine to try to steal other things ... something, a fence just to sell and buy something to eat. So it is not the intention of the community to do crime. We did got the promise from the mine that they will employ the people, so now they are people who are from outside the village working in the mines of Maandagshoek whereas the people are still looking for a job, they just go up and down here. I still that is the road to look for the money that is to search the people, to steal the cars and rob people of their cell phones, stealing the cables.
DM: We are shifting now just to more recent things. What do you think about the recent development in the ruling party, the ANC ... the last 6 months, all the things that have changed. Have they had any impact here in the community or on the kind of job that you do as a community activist.
EM: Do you mean after...
DM: Ja, after Polokwane basically?
EM: There is no something changed and after the elections in Limpopo. But from my side I think they should be a change very soon by the new leaders of the ANC. Comrade JZ, Kgalema Motlanthe, the secretary Gwede Mantashe, Baleka Mbete and Phosa, I believe that they will make changes in the country , especially those people in Limpopo, the landless people, the mine issue where the mines they are just dumping the people's land without giving them a cent. I was so happy to hear the secretary of the ANC yesterday saying Gwede Mantashe saying the unions they must protect the workers, I was happy for the leader to say that, meaning that they want a better life for the people and also for the workers. So I think he is a great man and he is not biased to anybody, he is not in somebody's pocket, he is speaking alone that the unions must protect the workers because now the mines they just want to retrench the people because of the issue of electricity. Then he did indicate that they have mentioned last year that they are on the road to see how they are going to retrench people. We don't want people to be retrenched we want people to be employed. So the government is on the issue of how people they could get employment, so we can see the rate of crime, poverty going down but the mines want to use the issue of electricity to retrench the workers. I support Gwede Mantashe when he is saying Eskom and the government they must see how can they solve the problem because we want people to work and do what they do everyday and get payment and that their family, they can grow up.
Minutes 1:20:39 END OF AHP_MAA_MokgogaEmmanuel_20080224a Emmanuel Mokgoga; 2008-02-24a: 1
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Related Objects
First interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (June 10, 2007)
SAHA
Emmanuel Makgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, during an oral history interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
Courtesy of SAHA
Part two of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (February 25, 2008)
Courtesy of SAHA
Creator: McKinley, Dale
Mokgoga, Emmanuel
Veriava, Ahmed
Mokgoga, Emmanuel
Veriava, Ahmed
Contributing Institutions: SAHA; MATRIX: The Center for Humane Arts, Letters and Social Sciences Online at Michigan State University
Contributor: Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Biography: Twenty nine at the time of the interview and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, Emmanuel Mokgoga is married with two children. Born in Vereeniging, he moved back to the family home in Maandagshoek when he was ten. After matric he went to work in Sasolburg and became a shop steward in the South African Paper Printing and Allied Workers Union (SAPPAWU). He returned to Maandagshoek after being retrenched and has become one of the key community leaders/activists in the area and has traveled fairly widely and done work with various NGOs and social movements.
Description: Part one of the second interview with Emmanuel Mokgoga, community leader/activist and spokesperson of the Maandagshoek Development Committee, was conducted by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava in Maandagshoek in 2008 as part of the South African History Archive's Alternative History Project, titled 'Forgotten Voices in the Present'.
Date: February 24, 2008
Location: Maandagshoek, Limpopo, Republic of South Africa
Format: Audio/mp3
Language: English
Rights Management: For educational use only.
Digitizer: SAHA
Source: SAHA collection AL3280
