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Part one of the interview with Johannes Madikgakge, Bishop of the Apostolic Church of Christ, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
Part one of the interview with Johannes Madikgakge, Bishop of the Apostolic Church of Christ, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
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Part two of the interview with Johannes Madigakge, Bishop of the Apostolic Church of Christ, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (June 12, 2007)
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Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-06-12
Location of interview: Maandagshoek, Limpopo
Language of interview: Sotho
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Johannes Madikgakge
Name of translator: Emmanuel Mokgoga
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_MAA_MadikgakgeJohannes_20070612a INTERVIEW WITH JOHANNES MADIKGAKGE.
Dale: Can you please tell us what is your name and your position as a pastor in this community?
Johannes: My name is Johannes Madikgakge; here at Maandagshoek I'm the bishop of the church of Apostolic church of Christ, furthermore, you will stop me if you want me to stop for a little. Furthermore I can say on the religious work of us, when we welcome you we then, we are just in struggle, we don't see any change we don't see any changes we are suffering. We are asking our government to assist us so that we can be in churches, you see here, it is like goats sleep there So we were asking government to help us when we talk about government they say it is politics, they are unable to help us with anything they can't help us with church building, if you can look, I suffered, I built this change as it is and it then fell as a whole, I then started again from scratch until it became the way it is now, I'm stark again I don't have anything to continue with it, I have to struggle again to be able to buy things like woods and roofing to finish the building.
Dale: When did you first become the bishop in the apostolic church?
Johannes: It happened that we were attending with another bishop of ours and he left us and we remained alone and there came another bishop who just pushed us out of the church and he remained with some people who remained. The congregation that I had, said that we don't need another bishop anymore, they then elected me to be their bishop.
Dale: Were you born here in Maandagshoek or did you just come here later?
Johannes: No, I was born in Driekop and then I came here in 1949, that's when I came here at Maandagshoek, I stayed here and grew up and then left to Gauteng and I was going to church and this congregation that I'm with, I opened it in Gauteng until they elected me but they elected me here at home.
Dale: What made you become a pastor or a member of the church and as a little bit story of how you became a pastor?
Johannes: For this pastoring to exist, I just sit as a person and I just realised that to sit and do nothing is not good, that is when I joined the church, I was with them for many years until they liked me to be a pastor at the church, and from being a pastor that is when they chose me to be their bishop
Dale: You said you became a bishop in Gauteng when you went to work, what kind of work did you do in Gauteng?
Johannes: I started working in Gauteng from 1959, I was in Rustenburg, I left Rustenburg but I was not yet a Christian. In 1960 I was in Benoni and then I looked into life and then I went back to church in 1960.
Dale: What kind of work were you doing then?
Johannes: Basically in the beginning at my work, this current things that they say is team leader they were not existing, there was "vasboy and head vasboy", I was all section vasboy from Benoni until I reaching Witbank
Dale: Can you tell us how it likes was, I mean from being a worker into being a pastor, there must have been something that you saw, I was it like back in the 60s?
Johannes: No, I've seen nothing but for me to be at church that when my life started to change, to be in another way.
Dale: Can you please tell us something, what is it that you remember most about becoming a member of the church, was it because of things you experienced or soul around him or he didn't like, because some people become religious for particular reasons, so what was the purpose?
Johannes: For why I became a Christian, I will tell the secrets that I was. I was playing boxing, the one that you will find us tying our muscles with belts, and then every Sunday we play we will hit each other and break each other's tooth and other parts. I then looked at it and realised that it was not something that will take someone to life.
Dale: Were you back here in Mandagshoek in the 70s when things began, the struggle after 1976 when things in the country began to be hard politically, you know people were struggling with apartheid state, there were many demonstrations. How were you involved or were you not involved or what was the role of you as a pastor?
Johannes: No, the role I played only at that time, I was just going and burying the dead people they killed that's all.
Dale: And how did that feel when you were burying young people who had died in the struggle, how did it feel to do that?
Johannes: My spirit was not right with even myself, my heart was painful so much, to look at young children dying, but I didn't know what to do, I just had to bury them.
Dale: So when things from the late 1980s into the 1990s when things started to change; the unbanning of the liberation movement and the release of MR Mandela and things, how did you as the pastor in this community, did you began to see changes in the way people responded to each other or how was the community responding at that time?
Johannes: My dream was looking and saying maybe we may, things might go well and we may be able to gain or maybe the new government will be useful to us and looking at all the killings and wishing that god help to stop them so that we can live nicely.
Dale: Is there an example that he can give to us that happened in the community at that time in the early 90s that will give us his role at that time as the pastor?
Johannes: Ja! At the time of struggle we tried to go and preach to people so that they can stop fighting like cows and go back to reality and stop fighting, as we are not cows.
Dale: How was that message received in the community?
Johannes: JA! I can't know very well how they took it but at that time I could see many people following me and thought they heard me.
Dale: And when did you first establish the church here in this community, was it at that time or was it later?
Johannes: Here at home there was a church even before.
Dale: How would you describe your congregation, the members that you have, how would you describe them in terms of the kind of people that have come in this church? In other words you might have a church that has a lot of young people or a lot of women. If you were to say my congregation is made up of so and so people that make the congregation?
Johannes: I encourage them by reading them a bible and showing them in language, to say, you see these is life and this is not life and life is here.
Dale: I was not asking what he does with them, I was asking him to describe his congregation, in saying what king of people comes to his church.
Johannes: I have old and young people, I have old people and young people from here to Springs, from Springs to Transkei I have people and in Mapulaneng and almost whole community of ours and even at Boksburg.
Dale: When April 1994 happened, the elections happened and when things started to change and we had the ANC and Mandela was elected as president. As the pastor and your congregation in Maandagshoek how did you feel, what was the spirit at that time?
Johannes: Basically, I saw a very huge happiness at the time the old man was released was sleeping during the votes and when I had the happiness noise I wanted to run thinking people were fighting.
Dale: Was there a special service that you had at your church to celebrate for the elections?
Johannes: JA! Ourselves at the church we did not have a celebration to tell the truth but we were very happy.
Dale: And as the pastor in his congregation he is very much aware of the things going on in the lives of people in this community, knowing them quite well. How did that point when the changes took place and we had a new government and democracy? How would you describe what it is that himself as a pastor and wanted to happen and his congregation?
Johannes: Ja! You see at that time we were looking for ourselves to live all of us, because our children when they went to that side, they did not have accommodation, they would drive them away, they would be arrested and kept in jail, we were happy with that hoping that maybe it will be better and we will live with our kids, they used to arrest even women and keep them in jail and then is a fault.
Dale: And what did you want for you and your church? What did you hope would come for you and your church with freedom?
Johannes: The new government, as we have voted and voted for them, we hope the government would help us in our churches so that they can help us even if not to build us a church but just to help us with other things that we needed.
AV: You were saying that you were hoping that even if they don't build a new church for you at least the needs of the people must be taken care of. For you what were the needs of the people here?
Johannes: If you can see here, I don't believe is at church if you can see I'm struggling to get the roofing for this church that's what I was saying government can help were we can't afford and that is when we can say it is helping.
Dale: What we are asking is what are the needs of individual people in the community, to live a better life as he said?
Johannes: Now I will say what the whole community need, firstly we need a road, its better now if it can rain, its not easy to walk all the community we don't walk, you live the care there and walk with our foot and then again we are suffering from draught, we don't have water in this world of ours to tell the full truth and again we have children and they are not working. There are the mines but our children are not working and then I'm saying if god can help people get water, road, that I think the community will be happy with this idea.
Dale: Now I think we have heard many people say those kind of things, so its quiet clear what the problems in this community are, now as a pastor who have long experience working in Gauteng understanding a lot of people here, in the last ten years lets say since 1996,97 or 94 how has a pastor seen in his congregation anything changing in terms of the role of freedom, in other words there were lot of expectations, so if you can us some examples of things that he see and the experience with the congregation?
Johannes: This new government what I can say they are trying to do for us, we are looking at the orphans in the community, they tried giving them food parcels. These are how they have helped our community of orphans even though they once did and they then stopped.
Dale: Pastor, have you seen any changes that have come with freedom? Negative things that have come after 1994?
Johannes: This freedom of ours we can see is trying and its right but what bothers us is, we are bothered by this government of ours they elected enemies and put them forward maybe the government like to work for us but things I just being disturbed by the men at the front and it cannot do anything for us.
AV: Explain to me what do you by your enemies that the government has put forward?
Johannes: It's our leaders I can just say from Mandela or from Mbeki, I can just say it's his cabinet they want to fill their pockets first and that is then that we can be helped.
Dale: As a pastor you go and visit people in their homes and seeing their problems, are there people dying in this community of diseases?
Johannes: Yes, there are people who die from diseases, many of them.
Dale: What are they dying from?
Johannes: The diseases they die from i don't have knowledge about them but you can just see that a person is thinner and is almost finished this person of god, we will pray and pray and it is just not possible but though we know there are diseases.
Dale: When we asked about bad things that happened after freedom do you think that, one of the things that this freedom has done is, I mean as a believer in Jesus Christ and in bible that it has taken people away from that kind of thing you know the morals and values, I just want to get not what you think but what you see in the community. Do you see people in the community you know many pastor would say our people are not paying attention to the important things in life, you know they are talking about they are going on money, beers and things like that, in English we call it the social fabric in the community.
Johannes: Now things have changed, the way they changed it's not impressing because this our new government have allowed us, our children carry guns, we can't even walk freely, as a priest when you walk carrying your bag with a bible they just take it from you and they run with it pointing you with a gun, that's when we see that our new government came but when coming to this it is not good to us. Because we have many guns in all our pockets they can't move from us and people are dying because of them.
AV: What do you think have caused people to behave in this way, what do you think caused people to change their moral character?
Johannes: Its hunger.
Dale: So there is lot of hunger now?
Johannes: Yes, a lot.
Dale: Pastor, I just want to talk, we have asked a lot of people about clearly in this community in one of the last 5 years one of the most important things has been the arrival of the mine and lot of people have said a lot of things about the mine is not providing a lot of jobs and all of the kind of things. From your perspective as a pastor, not only with his congregation but with all the people that have come into the community as the result of the mine, how does he see it?
Johannes: What I see with the mine, this mine has brought problems and then many families are breaking because of the mine and then all the diseases are more because of the mine. This mine that got into our homes, our houses broke, there is no use that the mine is bringing to us, since the houses broke, there is nothing that they did and when we talk to them no one listens, that's the way it is.
Dale: As a pastor did you have any involvement dealing with the mine?
Johannes: No, I'm not dealing with them even though I once asked for work from them and the working period did not last they just turned they backs from us, we were renovating houses in the mine and we agreed on the price and we agreed on R7500 and when we were done with houses, they then said it is R2500 per house and that's when I quitted, I just said to myself that its better to stay with hunger and they called me again and I told them that it won't be possible, this hunger I'm used to it, it is ours.
Dale: How do you make a living?
Johannes: Now, I'm just living from my plans and there is this truck that I have rented it to Petersburg at the cemetery that is the one working.
Dale: In most churches, the churches in urban areas and other places, the congregation give money to the church to support the pastor, is that not happening here or the people just don't have anything to give.
Johannes: No here they can't do because they don't have anything to give, people who do for me is people from Transkei, Boksburg and Springs, they used to but sometimes like this time they don't.
Dale: Do you get any support from other Apostolic church outside Maandagshoek?
Johannes: Yes my support is the one from Boksburg, Transkei and Springs and Bush.
Dale; Are there any relations with the other churches here, do pastors get together and discuss things about religious?
Johannes: Yes, since I came back home we met three times but because I could see that the things I showed them, they didn't like, they are used to hunger.
Dale: What is it that you were saying that they were disagreeing with you?
Johannes: I was telling them that we should get together as pastors and unite the churches to be one, so that we can collect enough money and give to each pastor at a time and the other time give the money to another pastor until we are all covered, so and so.
Dale: And they didn't want to do that? Johannes: yes.
AV: Pastor, if someone either the mine or the government came and said we know you are here in this community and you are doing a good job, what are the things that you need for your church, just for your church?
Johannes: Here at church I will want things that are for church, to be built a church, and the chairs and afterwards I have many orphans here at church that's when I can ask that the government can't help me, so that I can still help these orphans so that they can live.
AV: You were talking about the orphans that need help, what happens to them now?
Johannes: Now, with this table we sometimes on Sundays collect some cents and some times we make R30 or R20 and we look at the most poor family and we give them that R10 or R20, then they can live for two or three days and every Sunday we try to do like this.
Dale: Are there any programs that the churches or the people run outside the church for the orphans?
Johannes: Here ourselves we don't have.
Dale: Do you have any relations with the local councillor, earlier you didn't talk of any kind with the politicians, what he thinks of the local counsellor, is there any relationship between him and the local councillor in tying to get things done in this area.
Johannes: I once spoken to the councillor but unfortunately he does not have powers, he said he will go to the office and talk but it showed that he does not have powers because he never came back to me.
AV: Is he a good councillor?
Johannes: Yes, with no knowledge I will say he is a good councillor because I am from Gauteng and when I came here I found a councillor.
Dale: When did you arrive here again pastor?
Johannes: I can't remember but I think it was 94 or 97.
Dale: And from 94 did you have the same councillor?
Johannes: Yes, for the local votes we did not vote for the councillor, because the ANC said we should just vote for ANC and they will choose a councillor.
Dale: The picture that the pastor is painting to make it sound, you know what you have been saying to us about the church and the orphans is not a good picture in terms of the community, as pastor and as elder man who have been around for quiet some time and you have been to urban area and worked in the community seen a lot of things in life. What do you think needs to happen not just politically but with the people in the community to make the picture look better?
Johannes: Myself I don't have any other ideas, like a said on this table that the people I live with can eat on this table.
Dale: But as a man of god what does he think not just as an individual, what does he think can be done?
Johannes: There is nothing we can do except to go and ask, you there is a truck that deliver water for us, I once asked, I once made myself a sacrifice and went up and down searching for water for this community, I went from the offices here until Burgersford and they felt pity for me and they told me that the trucks were not there, but they were at Jane Furse but there was a break down there after the breakdown they told me that I will see trucks will come. Truthfully one of the days I was sitting and the truck just came with water and then people managed to live and the other thing to show food, we don't have a place where we can do farming we don't know how we can help the community.
AV: Pastor when we go back to Joburg and show this video to other people, is there any message that you will like us to take back to were we are going?
Johannes: They can just tell people that the community of Maandagshoek we are suffering like in the world called Ethiopia, now we are just making noise, maybe the people might help us.
Dale: Thank you very much
Minutes: 55
Date of interview: 2007-06-12
Location of interview: Maandagshoek, Limpopo
Language of interview: Sotho
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Johannes Madikgakge
Name of translator: Emmanuel Mokgoga
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_MAA_MadikgakgeJohannes_20070612a INTERVIEW WITH JOHANNES MADIKGAKGE.
Dale: Can you please tell us what is your name and your position as a pastor in this community?
Johannes: My name is Johannes Madikgakge; here at Maandagshoek I'm the bishop of the church of Apostolic church of Christ, furthermore, you will stop me if you want me to stop for a little. Furthermore I can say on the religious work of us, when we welcome you we then, we are just in struggle, we don't see any change we don't see any changes we are suffering. We are asking our government to assist us so that we can be in churches, you see here, it is like goats sleep there So we were asking government to help us when we talk about government they say it is politics, they are unable to help us with anything they can't help us with church building, if you can look, I suffered, I built this change as it is and it then fell as a whole, I then started again from scratch until it became the way it is now, I'm stark again I don't have anything to continue with it, I have to struggle again to be able to buy things like woods and roofing to finish the building.
Dale: When did you first become the bishop in the apostolic church?
Johannes: It happened that we were attending with another bishop of ours and he left us and we remained alone and there came another bishop who just pushed us out of the church and he remained with some people who remained. The congregation that I had, said that we don't need another bishop anymore, they then elected me to be their bishop.
Dale: Were you born here in Maandagshoek or did you just come here later?
Johannes: No, I was born in Driekop and then I came here in 1949, that's when I came here at Maandagshoek, I stayed here and grew up and then left to Gauteng and I was going to church and this congregation that I'm with, I opened it in Gauteng until they elected me but they elected me here at home.
Dale: What made you become a pastor or a member of the church and as a little bit story of how you became a pastor?
Johannes: For this pastoring to exist, I just sit as a person and I just realised that to sit and do nothing is not good, that is when I joined the church, I was with them for many years until they liked me to be a pastor at the church, and from being a pastor that is when they chose me to be their bishop
Dale: You said you became a bishop in Gauteng when you went to work, what kind of work did you do in Gauteng?
Johannes: I started working in Gauteng from 1959, I was in Rustenburg, I left Rustenburg but I was not yet a Christian. In 1960 I was in Benoni and then I looked into life and then I went back to church in 1960.
Dale: What kind of work were you doing then?
Johannes: Basically in the beginning at my work, this current things that they say is team leader they were not existing, there was "vasboy and head vasboy", I was all section vasboy from Benoni until I reaching Witbank
Dale: Can you tell us how it likes was, I mean from being a worker into being a pastor, there must have been something that you saw, I was it like back in the 60s?
Johannes: No, I've seen nothing but for me to be at church that when my life started to change, to be in another way.
Dale: Can you please tell us something, what is it that you remember most about becoming a member of the church, was it because of things you experienced or soul around him or he didn't like, because some people become religious for particular reasons, so what was the purpose?
Johannes: For why I became a Christian, I will tell the secrets that I was. I was playing boxing, the one that you will find us tying our muscles with belts, and then every Sunday we play we will hit each other and break each other's tooth and other parts. I then looked at it and realised that it was not something that will take someone to life.
Dale: Were you back here in Mandagshoek in the 70s when things began, the struggle after 1976 when things in the country began to be hard politically, you know people were struggling with apartheid state, there were many demonstrations. How were you involved or were you not involved or what was the role of you as a pastor?
Johannes: No, the role I played only at that time, I was just going and burying the dead people they killed that's all.
Dale: And how did that feel when you were burying young people who had died in the struggle, how did it feel to do that?
Johannes: My spirit was not right with even myself, my heart was painful so much, to look at young children dying, but I didn't know what to do, I just had to bury them.
Dale: So when things from the late 1980s into the 1990s when things started to change; the unbanning of the liberation movement and the release of MR Mandela and things, how did you as the pastor in this community, did you began to see changes in the way people responded to each other or how was the community responding at that time?
Johannes: My dream was looking and saying maybe we may, things might go well and we may be able to gain or maybe the new government will be useful to us and looking at all the killings and wishing that god help to stop them so that we can live nicely.
Dale: Is there an example that he can give to us that happened in the community at that time in the early 90s that will give us his role at that time as the pastor?
Johannes: Ja! At the time of struggle we tried to go and preach to people so that they can stop fighting like cows and go back to reality and stop fighting, as we are not cows.
Dale: How was that message received in the community?
Johannes: JA! I can't know very well how they took it but at that time I could see many people following me and thought they heard me.
Dale: And when did you first establish the church here in this community, was it at that time or was it later?
Johannes: Here at home there was a church even before.
Dale: How would you describe your congregation, the members that you have, how would you describe them in terms of the kind of people that have come in this church? In other words you might have a church that has a lot of young people or a lot of women. If you were to say my congregation is made up of so and so people that make the congregation?
Johannes: I encourage them by reading them a bible and showing them in language, to say, you see these is life and this is not life and life is here.
Dale: I was not asking what he does with them, I was asking him to describe his congregation, in saying what king of people comes to his church.
Johannes: I have old and young people, I have old people and young people from here to Springs, from Springs to Transkei I have people and in Mapulaneng and almost whole community of ours and even at Boksburg.
Dale: When April 1994 happened, the elections happened and when things started to change and we had the ANC and Mandela was elected as president. As the pastor and your congregation in Maandagshoek how did you feel, what was the spirit at that time?
Johannes: Basically, I saw a very huge happiness at the time the old man was released was sleeping during the votes and when I had the happiness noise I wanted to run thinking people were fighting.
Dale: Was there a special service that you had at your church to celebrate for the elections?
Johannes: JA! Ourselves at the church we did not have a celebration to tell the truth but we were very happy.
Dale: And as the pastor in his congregation he is very much aware of the things going on in the lives of people in this community, knowing them quite well. How did that point when the changes took place and we had a new government and democracy? How would you describe what it is that himself as a pastor and wanted to happen and his congregation?
Johannes: Ja! You see at that time we were looking for ourselves to live all of us, because our children when they went to that side, they did not have accommodation, they would drive them away, they would be arrested and kept in jail, we were happy with that hoping that maybe it will be better and we will live with our kids, they used to arrest even women and keep them in jail and then is a fault.
Dale: And what did you want for you and your church? What did you hope would come for you and your church with freedom?
Johannes: The new government, as we have voted and voted for them, we hope the government would help us in our churches so that they can help us even if not to build us a church but just to help us with other things that we needed.
AV: You were saying that you were hoping that even if they don't build a new church for you at least the needs of the people must be taken care of. For you what were the needs of the people here?
Johannes: If you can see here, I don't believe is at church if you can see I'm struggling to get the roofing for this church that's what I was saying government can help were we can't afford and that is when we can say it is helping.
Dale: What we are asking is what are the needs of individual people in the community, to live a better life as he said?
Johannes: Now I will say what the whole community need, firstly we need a road, its better now if it can rain, its not easy to walk all the community we don't walk, you live the care there and walk with our foot and then again we are suffering from draught, we don't have water in this world of ours to tell the full truth and again we have children and they are not working. There are the mines but our children are not working and then I'm saying if god can help people get water, road, that I think the community will be happy with this idea.
Dale: Now I think we have heard many people say those kind of things, so its quiet clear what the problems in this community are, now as a pastor who have long experience working in Gauteng understanding a lot of people here, in the last ten years lets say since 1996,97 or 94 how has a pastor seen in his congregation anything changing in terms of the role of freedom, in other words there were lot of expectations, so if you can us some examples of things that he see and the experience with the congregation?
Johannes: This new government what I can say they are trying to do for us, we are looking at the orphans in the community, they tried giving them food parcels. These are how they have helped our community of orphans even though they once did and they then stopped.
Dale: Pastor, have you seen any changes that have come with freedom? Negative things that have come after 1994?
Johannes: This freedom of ours we can see is trying and its right but what bothers us is, we are bothered by this government of ours they elected enemies and put them forward maybe the government like to work for us but things I just being disturbed by the men at the front and it cannot do anything for us.
AV: Explain to me what do you by your enemies that the government has put forward?
Johannes: It's our leaders I can just say from Mandela or from Mbeki, I can just say it's his cabinet they want to fill their pockets first and that is then that we can be helped.
Dale: As a pastor you go and visit people in their homes and seeing their problems, are there people dying in this community of diseases?
Johannes: Yes, there are people who die from diseases, many of them.
Dale: What are they dying from?
Johannes: The diseases they die from i don't have knowledge about them but you can just see that a person is thinner and is almost finished this person of god, we will pray and pray and it is just not possible but though we know there are diseases.
Dale: When we asked about bad things that happened after freedom do you think that, one of the things that this freedom has done is, I mean as a believer in Jesus Christ and in bible that it has taken people away from that kind of thing you know the morals and values, I just want to get not what you think but what you see in the community. Do you see people in the community you know many pastor would say our people are not paying attention to the important things in life, you know they are talking about they are going on money, beers and things like that, in English we call it the social fabric in the community.
Johannes: Now things have changed, the way they changed it's not impressing because this our new government have allowed us, our children carry guns, we can't even walk freely, as a priest when you walk carrying your bag with a bible they just take it from you and they run with it pointing you with a gun, that's when we see that our new government came but when coming to this it is not good to us. Because we have many guns in all our pockets they can't move from us and people are dying because of them.
AV: What do you think have caused people to behave in this way, what do you think caused people to change their moral character?
Johannes: Its hunger.
Dale: So there is lot of hunger now?
Johannes: Yes, a lot.
Dale: Pastor, I just want to talk, we have asked a lot of people about clearly in this community in one of the last 5 years one of the most important things has been the arrival of the mine and lot of people have said a lot of things about the mine is not providing a lot of jobs and all of the kind of things. From your perspective as a pastor, not only with his congregation but with all the people that have come into the community as the result of the mine, how does he see it?
Johannes: What I see with the mine, this mine has brought problems and then many families are breaking because of the mine and then all the diseases are more because of the mine. This mine that got into our homes, our houses broke, there is no use that the mine is bringing to us, since the houses broke, there is nothing that they did and when we talk to them no one listens, that's the way it is.
Dale: As a pastor did you have any involvement dealing with the mine?
Johannes: No, I'm not dealing with them even though I once asked for work from them and the working period did not last they just turned they backs from us, we were renovating houses in the mine and we agreed on the price and we agreed on R7500 and when we were done with houses, they then said it is R2500 per house and that's when I quitted, I just said to myself that its better to stay with hunger and they called me again and I told them that it won't be possible, this hunger I'm used to it, it is ours.
Dale: How do you make a living?
Johannes: Now, I'm just living from my plans and there is this truck that I have rented it to Petersburg at the cemetery that is the one working.
Dale: In most churches, the churches in urban areas and other places, the congregation give money to the church to support the pastor, is that not happening here or the people just don't have anything to give.
Johannes: No here they can't do because they don't have anything to give, people who do for me is people from Transkei, Boksburg and Springs, they used to but sometimes like this time they don't.
Dale: Do you get any support from other Apostolic church outside Maandagshoek?
Johannes: Yes my support is the one from Boksburg, Transkei and Springs and Bush.
Dale; Are there any relations with the other churches here, do pastors get together and discuss things about religious?
Johannes: Yes, since I came back home we met three times but because I could see that the things I showed them, they didn't like, they are used to hunger.
Dale: What is it that you were saying that they were disagreeing with you?
Johannes: I was telling them that we should get together as pastors and unite the churches to be one, so that we can collect enough money and give to each pastor at a time and the other time give the money to another pastor until we are all covered, so and so.
Dale: And they didn't want to do that? Johannes: yes.
AV: Pastor, if someone either the mine or the government came and said we know you are here in this community and you are doing a good job, what are the things that you need for your church, just for your church?
Johannes: Here at church I will want things that are for church, to be built a church, and the chairs and afterwards I have many orphans here at church that's when I can ask that the government can't help me, so that I can still help these orphans so that they can live.
AV: You were talking about the orphans that need help, what happens to them now?
Johannes: Now, with this table we sometimes on Sundays collect some cents and some times we make R30 or R20 and we look at the most poor family and we give them that R10 or R20, then they can live for two or three days and every Sunday we try to do like this.
Dale: Are there any programs that the churches or the people run outside the church for the orphans?
Johannes: Here ourselves we don't have.
Dale: Do you have any relations with the local councillor, earlier you didn't talk of any kind with the politicians, what he thinks of the local counsellor, is there any relationship between him and the local councillor in tying to get things done in this area.
Johannes: I once spoken to the councillor but unfortunately he does not have powers, he said he will go to the office and talk but it showed that he does not have powers because he never came back to me.
AV: Is he a good councillor?
Johannes: Yes, with no knowledge I will say he is a good councillor because I am from Gauteng and when I came here I found a councillor.
Dale: When did you arrive here again pastor?
Johannes: I can't remember but I think it was 94 or 97.
Dale: And from 94 did you have the same councillor?
Johannes: Yes, for the local votes we did not vote for the councillor, because the ANC said we should just vote for ANC and they will choose a councillor.
Dale: The picture that the pastor is painting to make it sound, you know what you have been saying to us about the church and the orphans is not a good picture in terms of the community, as pastor and as elder man who have been around for quiet some time and you have been to urban area and worked in the community seen a lot of things in life. What do you think needs to happen not just politically but with the people in the community to make the picture look better?
Johannes: Myself I don't have any other ideas, like a said on this table that the people I live with can eat on this table.
Dale: But as a man of god what does he think not just as an individual, what does he think can be done?
Johannes: There is nothing we can do except to go and ask, you there is a truck that deliver water for us, I once asked, I once made myself a sacrifice and went up and down searching for water for this community, I went from the offices here until Burgersford and they felt pity for me and they told me that the trucks were not there, but they were at Jane Furse but there was a break down there after the breakdown they told me that I will see trucks will come. Truthfully one of the days I was sitting and the truck just came with water and then people managed to live and the other thing to show food, we don't have a place where we can do farming we don't know how we can help the community.
AV: Pastor when we go back to Joburg and show this video to other people, is there any message that you will like us to take back to were we are going?
Johannes: They can just tell people that the community of Maandagshoek we are suffering like in the world called Ethiopia, now we are just making noise, maybe the people might help us.
Dale: Thank you very much
Minutes: 55
Translation: Download (16 KB)
SAHA
Related Objects
Part two of the interview with Johannes Madigakge, Bishop of the Apostolic Church of Christ, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (June 12, 2007)
SAHA
Creator: Madikgakge, Johannes
McKinley, Dale
Veriava, Ahmed
McKinley, Dale
Veriava, Ahmed
Contributing Institutions: SAHA; MATRIX: The Center for Humane Arts, Letters and Social Sciences Online at Michigan State University
Contributors: Emmanuel Mokgoga (Translator)
Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Biography: Johannes Madikgakge, in his late fifties and Bishop of the Apostolic Church of Christ at the time of the interview, was born in nearby Driekop and grew up in Maandagshoek. He worked as a general labourer in Gauteng during the 1980s and early-mid 1990s and came back to live in Maandagshoek in 1997. Here he established his small church where he continues to be its pastor. For a brief period he did some contract construction work for Modikwa mine, but now his main income comes from hiring out his bakkie for transport.
Description: The first part of the interview with Johannes Madikgakge, Bishop of the Apostolic Church of Christ, was conducted by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava in Maandagshoek in 2007 as part of the South African History Archive's Alternative History Project, titled 'Forgotten Voices in the Present'.
Date: June 12, 2007
Location: Maandagshoek, Limpopo, Republic of South Africa
Format: Audio/mp3
Language: Sotho
Rights Management: For educational use only.
Digitizer: SAHA
Source: SAHA collection AL3280