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An interview with Sebokeng resident Motseki Johannes Ngake, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
An interview with Sebokeng resident Motseki Johannes Ngake, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
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Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-09-12
Location of interview: Sebokeng, Gauteng
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Motseki Johannes Ngake
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_SEB_NgakeMotsekiJohannes_20070912 INTERVIEW WITH MOTSEKI JOHANNES NGAKE.
Dale Mckinley (DM): First of all thank you very much for agreeing to talk with us and giving your time.
Motseki Johannes Ngake (MJN): Thank you very much.
DM: Just for the record if can just state your full name and your place of residence, thanks?
MJN: I am Motseki Johannes Ngake; I am stay at 1086, Zone 6 Residentia which is basically in the Sebokeng area, in the Gauteng Province.
DM: What we are going to do is first ask you questions about your early childhood - life stories - before we get into the present. Were you born in this community?
MJN: Exactly I was born in this community. Basically at home we are from the Free State, from Lesotho. We came to this place from Winburg, and then we went to Houtkop, then we went to Residentia that's where we live now. I was born in this area, in Sebokeng hospital.
DM: Okay, and what year were you born?
MJN: I was born in 1970. DM: 1970? MJN: Ja, on the 19th of December.
DM: And your parents, what did they do?
MJN: My father and my mother, they are basically separated. But my mother is a domestic worker and my father is a taxi owner. So basically they are separated and my father got married to another woman.
DM: Was that when you were fairly young, when they separated?
MJN: Yes, definitely.
DM: And did you stay with both of them or did you go in between, how did that work?
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 1
MJN: Basically I was staying with my mother, that's why I adopted my mother's surname ... Ngake.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): Do you know why your family came to the Vaal?
MJN: Basically, the family came to the Vaal because the grandfather was working at the mines. So they had to come this side to live with the grandfather, that's why they came to the Vaal.
DM: Tell us a little bit about your childhood growing up here with your mom. Sorry, before I ask you that question - do you have brothers and sisters?
MJN: Yes definitely?
DM: How many brothers, sisters?
MJN: Two.
DM: Are you the oldest, youngest?
MJN: I am the oldest.
DM: You are the oldest?
MJN: Yes.
DM: Okay, just tell us a little bit about what is was like growing up here in the '70s and '80s in this area, as a child, as a kid?
MJN: Basically it was a little bit difficult because you know the old system did not allow freedom to say the least. It was good because we were bred by the old lady. Everything was fine at home but nevertheless in the system everything was fine. But nevertheless I grew up well. I went to Itukisetse Primary School, that's were I studied and the principal there and my parents were friends because we were going to the same church. So there was no way I could survive to run away and do anything. So it was like a conservative kind of life. But nevertheless, I did make it out to where I am now.
DM: And its sounds to me that because of that relationship, did you enjoy school, did you do well in school?
MJN: Excellent, I never failed at school from, as they called it at that time, from sub-A to Grade 12. I never failed, I did well at school because the principal was a friend to the family so I could not survive to do anything or the other. I had to be strict because we were going to the church, the family was there and the principal was there as the member of the congregation - so I did well at school.
DM: Just out of interest, what church is it that you attended with your parents?
MJN: At that time it was called 'NG' and now it is (?) Reformed Church.
DM: And when you got into high school, that would have been in the 1980s wouldn't it?
MJN: Exactly yes.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 2
DM: Things in this area were changing, there were lot of things that were happening politically, people were fighting and struggling. How did you find that, as a teenager at high school at that time in the 80s?
MJN: Basically in 1983 that's when we had a local struggle ... as a teenager basically, I was involved somehow in the struggle because I was a member of the COSAS at school and I was also a member of the debating team ... I felt that there was a need for a change. I saw it from that side. However I was part of the system so I fell for it and it was exciting for me to realise that if I had to go and catch the bakery and get bread and all those things, we used to call it "go tshwara bakery" for instance, all those things. It was a very exciting moment however, very threatening at the same time.
DM: Did you get into trouble with the authorities?
MJN: Yes, I did get into trouble with the authorities because they took me , because I was the member of the COSAS, they took me to jail ,the forces at that time. They questioned me about the friend of mine who was the president at school, they questioned me about him. In this case I wasn't fully involved in the system, I was only friends with the guy who was doing this job but nevertheless yes, I was only caught once.
DM: Were your perspectives on activities and everything informed by your mother's work as a domestic worker, her experiences in life as well? How was it for her as a domestic worker? Did she have a good time or was she ill-treated ... was it difficult for her? With some domestic work it's a different story.
MJN: No, basically she was fine because the gentleman she was working for was from England, he was quite a very humble guy. I went there and visited a couple of times and even slept there - him and his wife were very humble. I had a good time there. And the same time, she did not treat me the same as she treated the child of the ...
DM: The people who were employing her?
MJN: Exactly, exactly. She was very strict for us. Nevertheless, she had a very good time, the gentleman was very polite, the lady was very polite. I would assume that we have different kinds of people. But nevertheless she was excellent.
DM: One of the slogans during the 1980s amongst COSAS, was 'liberation before education' ...
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Now being someone who was obviously very close to your education and your principal how did you deal with that kind of thrust of the student activities?
MJN: It was very difficult. I mean liberation before education was a slogan by COSAS. However at Khutlo Tharo, where I attended, we changed it. We said people, we can't be liberated if we are not educated in the first place. So what we did was that we changed it to say then, be educated so that you can be liberated because you can't be liberated unless you know something about yourself or about the society that we live in. So we changed it and the students fell for it, they all did well. That was the profile that we did ask.
DM: Okay, and when did you graduate, when did you get your grade 12, your matric or whatever ... what year was that?
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MJN: I got it in 1989.
DM: 1989?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Okay, by that stage obviously, you had made some kind of decision about what you were interested in doing. What had drawn you in terms of your studies and what you were interested in?
MJN: When I finished matric in 1989 I went at the (?) Hotel and was a waiter there and I was a cashier there and I even worked at reception. Then the manager of the hotel took me for the hotel management study, which I got a diploma on that. From there in 1994 I went for a degree in B. Admin and B. Education again - I went for that and it was quite well ... my aim was basically to become a lawyer. I wanted to become a jurist, to say the least. Unfortunately the funds could not meet the relevant requirements so I went for B Admin and B. Ed..
DM: So you started working at a time, all those jobs that you have described, at a time when all the political changes started happening in the country in the early 1990s?
MJN: Yes.
DM: How did you see things ... as things were changing, Mandela was released and negotiations were taking place ... how did you see your own future in that context? Were you afraid, were you looking forward? What did you expect was going to happen?
MJN: Basically I expected a lot from the system, in fact from the old political scenario, I expected a lot. However, I expected that everything would be like a plate on the table ... however it did not go that well. After I resigned from the hotel it was on the basis that Mandela said everybody should go to school. I resigned from the hotel and I went to the university and unfortunately I did not see what I expected, it was a different story.
DM: Just tell us a little bit about what you expected and what you saw?
MJN: What I was expected was that I will see a country that will be free and education as a requirement for life would be a free thing. Unfortunately I did not see that - it is what I expected but I did not see that. At the very same time the system changed you know, from the past regime into the new regime. You know I prefer personally to go to the past regime ... because it was strict and disciplined, in my perspective. However that's what did not auger well for the whole life, as I will put it.
DM: Okay, let's follow that a little bit. When you say 'strict and disciplined' ... what kind of strictness and what kind of discipline are you talking about? I mean, that you liked a lot, that you think it was a good thing?
MJN: Dr McKinley, you know the past system did not put pressure on the ... let me rephrase that ... the past system did not allow wrongness you know, in front of rightness. In the first place I would assume that in the past system we never had murders, rapes and so forth as much as we have now. Because the past system was so pure in applying the law. The law now is applied but at the very same time the law contradicts itself - that's the problem. I remember Hugo Goutas (?), one of the jurists, that if you kill, you must be Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 4 killed, as the Islam would put it. That makes it balanced ... that whatever you do to me it must be done to you. Basically it relates to the law, the religious law. I'm not quite comfortable with the system now. I read the Sunday Times last week and they spoke about how teachers are tired because they can not punish the learners anymore and if they cannot punish learners any more it means learners have got rights, more than teachers. That's where the problem starts. If you come late - if the school starts at 8 o'clock and you come at quarter past 8, what do I do as a teacher? I become confused because I can't in the first place, discipline you - corporal punishment - I have to do other measures that can discipline you but I can't do that now because the system does not allow me. The South African School Act does not allow that as a teacher. So, I'm left just like that.
DM: So your perspective would be one that a lack of discipline, application of the law has led to the kind of behaviour that we are seeing today? Is that what you would say?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Okay, what would you then say to somebody who said, hang on a minute, what about the racial component of the previous system, what about all of that, the oppression, you know what we were fighting against as the students in the 1980s?
MJN: I have always recalled the question of reconciliation. Reconciliation must be well defined, because reconciliation is not about me meeting you, you meeting me, reconciliation is an emotional excise. At the very same time it is a psychological exercise, that when I meet you, I meet you as a friend of mine, as a human being at the same time. So the perspective of racism is the question that it is not well defined. The law does not give the real perspective about what is exactly about racism. To be racist does not mean to hate you as white or to hate me as black, no that's not racism. Racism is an emotional content of a human being - you and me have got red blood, we die, we are fallible as human beings. At the very same time you and me have to reconcile emotionally and psychologically. I can marry your daughter and you can marry my daughter - that is how basically we close-up the question of racism. There is no way that racism can be defined in a categoric perspective, there is no way that it can be defined in that. It has to be a psychic matter, that's how you define racism.
DM: So how would you then .... once 1994 happened, the elections happened and everything ... how would you describe, as someone who has thought about these things clearly yourself, the way in which things have turned out? You mentioned that you are not happy with some of the lack of discipline, with lack of law and order, but how would you make sense, in your world where you stay here, of the things that have happened since 1994, on that basis of what you were talking about?
MJN: Exactly. In 1994 ... in fact I voted in Qwa Qwa - that's where I was working at the University there. The scenario that I see now basically is that we don't have democracy in this country, in fact democracy is impossible. The scenario that I see is that I perceive that the system that we have now and that we had in the past - which I will never refer to - what we have now does not correlate with the human needs. Basically we are talking about human needs - remember the law of theory - the human needs are not met. So basically I cannot conclude personally, as a human being, that we are living in a free country.
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DM: When you say human needs give us an indication of what you mean by human needs, what kinds of human needs?
MJN: Physical, we start there. We have people who are poor - I'm not referring to blacks only, we have coloureds, we have whites we have, you know, Indians who are poor. The physical needs how do people ... you know in Belgium they have the system whereby every member of society is provided with some form of social security, whereby you can't see any person poor. The physical needs - if I cannot wear or have anything to eat therefore I'm deprived. But here, the person who decides on my behalf is eating well, he is having an X5 and so forth, but I can't have that. The second one is the esteem, self esteem. If you can assume when you look at schools or our kids ... your kid for example Dr McKinley ... they look at the computer anytime, start with the computer, but when it comes to the mental gymnastics he or she can't just explain ... therefore we have a problem of some form of mental deviation., I would assume. Whereby people, we don't build our society in the sense that we achieve what we actually wanted to achieve. Because freedom is impossible, democracy is impossible we can't have that.
DM: Are you saying as a general statement or in the context South Africa in post-1994 or are you making a general statement?
MJN: No, basically it's a general statement. Even in America, you go to America, they are practising neo-democracy, you come to South Africa it is neo-democracy, you go anywhere in the world where there is democracy and it is neo democracy. Because there is no way that we can have democracy, it is an impossible situation.
AV: Why do you think that is?
MJN: Pardon.
AV: Why do you think that is?
MJN: Basically pure democracy means that if you ... its like an ideal world, its like its heaven. Pure democracy is heaven, it is something that we cannot achieve. You know from my perspective ... let me just explain democracy. Democracy comes from two concepts demos means people, cratis means to rule. So now, rule by the people, can people tell you what to do? They will tell you what to do. At the very same time you are the one who take the decision - is this right or is this wrong? Now our politicians in the country will tell them what to do - we want houses, there will be a new house. In two weeks time the house is cracked and it falls down. The very same person who tells you what to do is seated at the mansion ... so democracy is impossible. Even Aristotle did mention that democracy is just not pure, it just can't happen.
DM: ... just to follow this a bit more before we come back to some more personal questions. The kind of democracy or the kind of system of the government that has come about since 1994, how would you describe it? How would you describe the kind of government you are living under, that we are all living under right now? How would you describe that, given your views?
MJN: In the first place it is capitalist. It's capitalist in the sense that you know, the government works in the sense that people earn on behalf of others. Let me make an Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 6 example. I read a paper, the Daily Sun on Tuesday, where they were talking about social development. The government accrues tax, we pay tax of course, even if you buy chappies you pay a value added tax. At the very same time that money does not go to the government directly, it goes through certain individuals who take decisions. In other words, the government that we have now is capitalist ... it works for people who are already in government ... it is what we call in Political Science, the rewards. If I have been involved in the political system or in the struggle for democracy or in the struggle for a change of the system, that would mean that I have to be rewarded. That's why in government you find people saying to relatives - nepotism - because they have to be rewarded for what they did in the past system. Therefore it's a capitalist government.
DM: And I am assuming that you are ... or let me not assume anything actually. Let me ask you , you have described it but in terms of where you live and in your life, what does that mean? How do you experience that ...?
MJN: Basically I am not working at the moment. I used to work at the college ... and my experience is that the government does not plough back to the people who put it there. In other words, if I can't work as a graduate with a B.Com tech and so forth, it means that the government has not put enough to the people. So therefore, as I said, it's a form of government that concludes on the basis of itself, not on the basis of the people- of itself. The Mpumalanga community got their land, I think about a week ago they got their land, after about thirty years of struggling and ten years struggling through the system. They got their land ... very, very hard. The land commissioner could not approve that because the land commissioner had things that he had to get from them, some money to get from them. So, it was very difficult for them to get the land. Therefore, my life is not at all well. I can't agree to see someone suffering while at the very same time I'm doing better. I mean a glass of water will make a difference to me but a glass of water will never make a difference to anyone. So the government does not plough well. The government must plough back to the people of which it doesn't do. That's why I referred to it earlier as a capitalist.
DM: Just to go back to your own trajectory. We stopped where you were talking about going to college. What college did you go to?
MJN: I went to the Qwa Qwa University.
DM: You went to the university?
MJN: Yes.
DM: And you were studying to get what degree?
MJN: I studied Batchelor of Administration.
DM: And this was in the mid '90s right?
MJN: Yes in the mid '90s.
DM: Tell us how your experience was? I think you are probably the first person we have talked to here who has gone to University. How is that experience for someone coming from the townships ... there are not many people who go to university usually?
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MJN: Basically I went to the University through TEFSA - the Tertiary Fund of South Africa. And it funded me up until I got my degree, even honours and it was a very terrible experience, I even worked at the tuck shop of the school, at the dinning hall. I worked there and my experience was that typically white institutions were well financed and students from white institutions were well preferred when it comes to employment. So to me it was disadvantage. However, I did manage to finish my degree through the funds and it was not a very good experience. However you had to persevere, to make it in to the system. So the system was not very good at that time.
DM: Just give us a couple of examples of what wasn't good at the university, what kind of things?
MJN: In the first place, we had for example, financial exclusion, that was the first one. If I don't have money to register I can not attend. At the very same time, TEFSA financed students at typically white universities, mostly to register and so forth. And again the question of stationery or the allowance as I will put it. It was very difficult to get an allowance and the residence fee was one of the aspects which basically put us aback. But nevertheless you turn to develop with that - that's why I worked at the dinning hall and I was dishing out to other students. To me it was a nice experience. However, the system did not provide enough for the development of students in the country. That's where the problem starts.
DM: Tell us, how did your friends and peers here, respond when you got accepted and you went to university. I imagine most of your friends, most of your people, probably think that going to university is quite a good thing, quite a privileged thing to do. How did they respond?
MJN: It was very exhilarating I would say, because most of them were about to go there and some were already university graduates. They were very exhilarated for me to go to the university and study, in fact they even visited me that side. It was a very exciting experience for them because when I came back, when I graduated, they were very happy. So I would assume that personally it was not a new thing because to go to a university from a disadvantaged community, as a black man, it was like a privilege, like you have money at home for you, you can afford to do that. They were very excited.
AV: Now you know you were speaking earlier about some of the problems that you faced at Qwa Qwa University?
MJN: Yes.
AV: During the 1990s there was also a broad kind of movement amongst the students for what was called transformation?
MJN: Exactly.
AV: How were you involved in those things at the university at all?
MJN: Exactly. Basically I was a General Secretary. I started as the president of the Pan African Student Organisation (PASO) and then I went to become the General Secretary of the SRC, then I became the member of the Broad Transformation Forum. The system at that time, we had a professor, German .... and I was involved and made sure that all Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 8 students were able to finish their degree, even though there were not well financed but there were be able to finish their degree ... where there are inputs at the university, there must be an output. What is their contribution to the society - that was the main question. So I was greatly involved at all costs - as the General Secretary of the SRC, as President of PASO and as General Secretary of the Broad Transformation Forum, the BTF, which changed the amalgamation of universities and colleges, as they now call them, technikons.
AV: And just within the kind of student political world , SASCO (the South African Students Congress) was the dominant organisation. What made you to gravitate towards PASO?
MJN: I am a Pan Africanist. My belief was that an African man was not made, was not made to be poor. So my involvement in the Black Consciousness Movement of Stephen Bantu Biko - which we celebrated a week ago - was that a black man has to develop himself. But then to develop himself, a black man has to be resourced because he was deprived of the resources. Now that's what made me to be consciously involved with the Pain Africanist movement. That you can't get education if you are black. When I'm referring to black you should be careful - I'm not referring to the colour - I'm referring to the mindset, not the colour, but the mindset which was basically depressed by people from the West and East. So that's why I got involved in the Pan-Africanist ideology and so forth.
DM: You graduated with honours, you got a BA Honours - what year was that?
MJN: Basically I graduated in 1997 for B Admin degree and in 1998 I got a BA Honours in Political Science ... at the very same time in 1998, I got the scholarship to go to Belgium, I was in Gent at the French University I would assume that you know Professor Doorn. DM: I know the name. MJN: He was my supervisor in Belgium. That was in 1998, that's when the University employed me, from 1998.
DM: Okay, and how long were you in Belgium?
MJN: I was in Belgium for three months.
DM: And how was that ... this is very interesting ... how was that experience? Was that the first time out of South Africa for you?
MJN: Yes it was for the first time. It was excellent. However, I missed atchar, you know atchar?
DM: Yes.
MJN: When I was there I spoke to Ben Schoeman, he is a friend of mine whom I worked with. I spoke to him to bring atchar to Belgium and some pap. However I realised one thing that in Europe they don't sleep, there are lot of things. When I came back I realised that here in South Africa people sleep - that's why they call Africa black, it's the dark continent because people sleep deeply. But in Europe I would go to IT lab at one o'clock Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 9 in the morning. So people there don't sleep. The experience there was better, a little bit of racist but yet it was a very excellent experience.
DM: And then you arrived back and what happened next when you came back home?
MJN: When I came back home I was employed by the Qwa Qwa University, with Professor Louis Ferreira ... I worked at the university for a couple of years with first and second years but unfortunately I got sick then I had to come home.
DM: Sorry I know this is personal ... but what illness were you suffering from?
MJN: Basically it was sort of tuberculosis. Nevertheless you know, in the African tradition we have things that they work on us. I did recover.
DM: You did recover?
MJN: Yes.
DM: When you got ill you came back here to this community?
MJN: Yes
DM: Tell us, you had been gone for quite some time obviously, you had gone to university, you were gone several years. When you came back that was in the late '90s right?
MJN: Early 2000.
DM: Early 2000?
MJN: Yes.
DM: How did you find coming back into this community after so many years, after you left? What did you find here?
MJN: When I came here I was very angry when I saw the environment because in terms of the system, this is a suburb and we are not supposed to be divided ... I started a movement, I spoke to people and said let's do something about it. I did that but unfortunately there are sometimes back-stabbers and so forth and I had to withdraw. So when I came here I did not see anything fine, even now nothing is fine. So I tried to change it but due to people becoming naïve and envious in the system I decided to withdraw.
DM: Tell us more specifically, when you say it wasn't fine ... what did you see specifically that you didn't like in this community?
MJN: In the first place the infrastructure was not well and again, the people around here, especially the kids and so forth, you know they have a way of entertaining themselves or let me say extra-mural activities. So I tried to establish how can I do better, right now I'm still in the process of establishing what we call soccer for the people, so they can play soccer cause I know that would attract the younger ones and they would come and watch their fathers playing ... I'm still trying. I don't know whether Mr Makhanya will come and play, I will put him as a goalkeeper.
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DM: And did you come back and stay in your family home when you came back? Was your mother still alive?
MJN: Exactly, my mother was still alive.
DM: And is she still working?
MJN: No she is not working.
DM: She is retired now?
MJN: Yes.
DM: How does she survive?
MJN: We have a brother at home. He is a caretaker for us so that's how we survive.
DM: Okay, and so for the last while you have been unemployed now?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Just tell us a little bit about your own experience in terms of seeking work in this area or else where?
MJN: Seeking work is very difficult in South Africa, in fact around here, but I will put it globally in South Africa. Because to get employed you must be the member of the ANC. If I am a member of the DA or ID it is very difficult to get a job because of the very same thing that I spoke about earlier, about the rewards, that if I was struggling in 1960s and so forth I must be employed. So getting employment is very difficult. I have applied at the Department of Foreign Affairs and so forth. I have applied a lot but I just can't get a response, I'm asking myself. However I got information from a friend of mine who is a counsellor around here. He told me no, be a member of the ANC then you will get a job, I see your CV every time there but you can't just get employed because you are not a member of the ANC. So that is some form of paying back the people who did what they did at that time.
DM: What do you think about that? I mean how does that make you feel when you know that you are fairly qualified, you've got degrees ... how does that make you feel?
MJN: You know it makes me feel very bad because I believe that I can contribute to the society. I mean at that time I won't be working for the government but I will be working for the people which basically puts the government there, so I will be working for the people. I feel terribly bad if I see someone who is not well and you know he can't get anything to eat, it terribly hurts me. But that's how the system puts it. As much as they would do now, the president would be Jacob Zuma or whoever, it's just a power struggle at the very same time at the expense of the people, that's a problem, the people. It makes me very sad.
DM: Just out of interest have you applied to do teaching jobs?
MJN: Teaching jobs yes, I have applied.
DM: Here, at high schools?
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MJN: High schools yes, but unfortunately I do not have what you call the higher education diploma that is required for teaching because I did an honours so I'm qualified to teach at colleges, technikons and universities.
DM: But not at the high schools?
MJN: Yes, at the high school I'm not. If I go to the high school I have to be the principal, I can't teach.
DM: Because of your qualifications?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: As someone who spent quite a lot of time doing/getting education, what do you think when you look at the educational system now, when you look at young kids, students, what are your thoughts?
MJN: Terrible.
DM: Why?
MJN: The education system in this country ... remember that we have got the OBE from New Zealand, also from Australia and a little bit from America. That system does not apply in the country, it is impossible that it can apply. Because the scenario in New Zealand and Australia does not apply in South Africa, therefore the system of education is bad. That's why I said earlier, that when I read in the newspaper, Sunday Times, about teachers been stretched, being threatened, teachers being punished or teachers being beaten - it is because the system itself, of education, is not disciplined. How can I give a learner a right and depress the right of an educator? That makes it imbalanced, therefore the system does not apply. At the very same time, a second thought, is that our curriculum does not include technology - computer science for instance, as part of the curriculum, the framework they have applied does not include computing. Right now I can go to any school, or on Monday I go to any school, you'll never find a situation whereby there is a class for computing. Computing is our world, technology is our world today so you will never find it there. Scania, the company, provided computers for schools which I have never mentioned but there are no classes for computers. It means our education system is basically flawed and the way that it is promoted cannot meet the modern standard. That's why I would say the traditional system of discipline and modesty are applicable. So we have a flawed education system.
DM: A few more questions and then we'll wrap up. You clearly have strongly held opinions and have thought through a lot about these things. When you look at ... I'm not talking about education and the politics necessarily but what I would call the social fabric of our society, the general social fabric ... now, thirteen years after 1994 what do you see?
MJN: It has broken, the fibre has broken. Really I would assume that you would ask me that question, of the social fibre of our society - it has been broken. Because the law or rather the system in the country allows more rights than restraining. I mean Section 39 does provide for restriction but it does not give enough preventative measures to engage into the Act itself. When you go right now you can sleep with a child of fifteen, sixteen Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 12 years old, because now the system gives more money and less norms and values, more money and less norms and values. Therefore our social fibre has broken down. We don't have norms and values and principles are not applied any more. That's why at some point n time, you ask yourself why is this lady, this little one dressed like this? In a traditional mode you will never see a woman dressed in a mini skirt, that would be a disgrace in the society. It happens now and that's why it leads to the devaluation of the very same norms and values. They have been devaluated because of the system itself. Our system is not quite valuable, therefore our social fibre has been broken, it has been really shattered ... we don't have it now. I mean if you look at ETV in the early hours of Sunday morning you will see things which are not valuable in terms of the human beings. But our kids do watch that and they want to practice it, which brings our norms and values devalued at the very same time. Therefore our social fibre is not really valuable at all. (Change of tape)
DM: You just described what you think is wrong, the things that are not there ... I want to ask you what is it that you would like to see happening?
MJN: Basically I would like to see in civil society, the observations of norms and the values which were basically upheld in the past, should be made to be part of the law. If I am a youngster and you are an adult there should be that relationships which basically should be restrained. However that does not apply in the country. In other words, what I wish to have in the country is that the law must be strict, stringent and at the very same time it must provide for other maladies that might occur. Because in our law in our country, I mean the Constitution Act 108 it has got a lot of flaws. And the Bill of Right which is Chapter 2 of the Constitution has got to be done in a way that, or reconstructed in a way that, it provide the stringent measures for the perpetrators of the law ... I would assume in China and other countries which are basically Islamic, they are very stringent ... you would never find a person who has raped in China, who has raped in Saudi Arabia for instance that doesn't happen. Because if you kill in Saudi Arabia you must be killed, which makes a balance. Therefore the law in this country, in fact the system in this country, are not balanced. Balance is the only way that we can manage. For example in business if you look at platinum, gold and other commodities it is not balanced, its' a capitalist country. People work to earn for themselves which is very monopolistic and therefore it does not create corporate responsibility and that in itself makes people more poor than they would be. Therefore, what I would like to see is partners, that's my perspective.
DM: Just one quick question, you wanted to be a lawyer, you have obviously studied the law quite a bit and everything else ... Do you have any involvement at all with people here who are helping out with legal issues or problems in the community?
MJN: I help a lot. In fact even right now when Mr Makhanya came and picked me up in I was helping people. I even do business plans you know ...some people come to me and ask me to help them with letters and so forth. I basically consider myself as a social animal therefore I assist anybody who comes to me. If I've got the knowledge I assist anybody who comes to me. I think it's my social responsibility.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 13
DM: What do you think ... not specifically the larger questions which you were addressing ... but of the legal system in particular, you know every thing from the magistrates court which is at the local level, upwards?
MJN: Very flawed, very flawed. I mean if you look at the magistrates court, the Hgh Court up until the Constitutional Court, very flawed. In the sense that you have the jurists who are qualified to give reasonable sentences. To give reasonable judgements. However they are not informed about how does that judgement get implemented. So the legal system in the country is very flawed. I cannot kill you and be sentenced for two years and someone who robs a bank be sentenced to ten years. That, according to me, does not auger well with my understanding of the law. I still refer you to Hugo Gootes (?) ...that if you do unto me then let it be done unto you. So the legal system in this country is very flawed. I rob you right now I'm given two months, I kill Mr Makhanya I'm given ten years, I rob a bank I'm given two days, that does not make sense Remember last time when Minister Manto Msimang was fighting over Makhanya at Sunday Times about the revelations in the newspaper, which proves that came at the wrong time, the Deputy Minister is dismissed and this information comes in. Why it did not come before ... she has been in Botswana, eight months of investigations, but why did it come now - which proves that the system itself is flawed. So there is no way that we can have a balanced legal system.
DM: And just a couple of last things. When you look into the future, to the things that you want for your self, what is it that you would like to happen for you, in your own life?
MJN: Basically in the first place I want to change the system. In fact I want to change the world, how people perceive the world. Because what I have seen now is that people have lost the relationship with the creator ... they have lost the relationship . My aim is to put back what God placed at the beginning, that's what I want to do. As a jurist, if I get there, I wish to put the law of the lord which basically is the basis of everything. That is what I wish to see myself, not necessarily being a pastor or being a member of any religious congregation but I wish to see myself changing the system so that our norms and values, principles can be observed which basically is what leads to a lot of death and HIV/AIDS and so forth. That's because the norms and values, the principles have been devalued that's where the problems starts. So I wish to see myself changing all that mindset, to create a new being, which is the original people, that's how I would like to see myself in the future.And I would be very happy if you can help me Dr McKinley .
DM: (laughing) I once thought about doing law and then I went and got a doctorate in politics. Lastly, the last thing that we always ask our interviewees - is there anything that you would like to say that we haven't asked you, that we haven't covered, give you an opportunity to say whatever it is that you would like to say? MJN: Not that much. Basically I am very happy that I am part of the interview. I would not say that there is anything that you haven not asked me, I mean we have covered everything except one thing that I don't think we should cover on the camera, but we will talk about this later on. DM: Okay, we can talk about that off the record.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 14
MJN: But nevertheless everything has been covered and I feel very comfortable and really I don't have anything except one thing we have not spoken about - religion, which basically is the masterpiece of the universe, the cosmos. I think it would be much more better to go back and relate man and God, which is basically the beginning ... so that is one of the aspects that you never asked me, but nevertheless I've enjoyed the interview and I'm quite comfortable.
DM: Thank you very much for giving your time.
MJN: Thank you.
MINUTES - 53:23 Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 15
Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-09-12
Location of interview: Sebokeng, Gauteng
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Motseki Johannes Ngake
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_SEB_NgakeMotsekiJohannes_20070912 INTERVIEW WITH MOTSEKI JOHANNES NGAKE.
Dale Mckinley (DM): First of all thank you very much for agreeing to talk with us and giving your time.
Motseki Johannes Ngake (MJN): Thank you very much.
DM: Just for the record if can just state your full name and your place of residence, thanks?
MJN: I am Motseki Johannes Ngake; I am stay at 1086, Zone 6 Residentia which is basically in the Sebokeng area, in the Gauteng Province.
DM: What we are going to do is first ask you questions about your early childhood - life stories - before we get into the present. Were you born in this community?
MJN: Exactly I was born in this community. Basically at home we are from the Free State, from Lesotho. We came to this place from Winburg, and then we went to Houtkop, then we went to Residentia that's where we live now. I was born in this area, in Sebokeng hospital.
DM: Okay, and what year were you born?
MJN: I was born in 1970. DM: 1970? MJN: Ja, on the 19th of December.
DM: And your parents, what did they do?
MJN: My father and my mother, they are basically separated. But my mother is a domestic worker and my father is a taxi owner. So basically they are separated and my father got married to another woman.
DM: Was that when you were fairly young, when they separated?
MJN: Yes, definitely.
DM: And did you stay with both of them or did you go in between, how did that work?
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 1
MJN: Basically I was staying with my mother, that's why I adopted my mother's surname ... Ngake.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): Do you know why your family came to the Vaal?
MJN: Basically, the family came to the Vaal because the grandfather was working at the mines. So they had to come this side to live with the grandfather, that's why they came to the Vaal.
DM: Tell us a little bit about your childhood growing up here with your mom. Sorry, before I ask you that question - do you have brothers and sisters?
MJN: Yes definitely?
DM: How many brothers, sisters?
MJN: Two.
DM: Are you the oldest, youngest?
MJN: I am the oldest.
DM: You are the oldest?
MJN: Yes.
DM: Okay, just tell us a little bit about what is was like growing up here in the '70s and '80s in this area, as a child, as a kid?
MJN: Basically it was a little bit difficult because you know the old system did not allow freedom to say the least. It was good because we were bred by the old lady. Everything was fine at home but nevertheless in the system everything was fine. But nevertheless I grew up well. I went to Itukisetse Primary School, that's were I studied and the principal there and my parents were friends because we were going to the same church. So there was no way I could survive to run away and do anything. So it was like a conservative kind of life. But nevertheless, I did make it out to where I am now.
DM: And its sounds to me that because of that relationship, did you enjoy school, did you do well in school?
MJN: Excellent, I never failed at school from, as they called it at that time, from sub-A to Grade 12. I never failed, I did well at school because the principal was a friend to the family so I could not survive to do anything or the other. I had to be strict because we were going to the church, the family was there and the principal was there as the member of the congregation - so I did well at school.
DM: Just out of interest, what church is it that you attended with your parents?
MJN: At that time it was called 'NG' and now it is (?) Reformed Church.
DM: And when you got into high school, that would have been in the 1980s wouldn't it?
MJN: Exactly yes.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 2
DM: Things in this area were changing, there were lot of things that were happening politically, people were fighting and struggling. How did you find that, as a teenager at high school at that time in the 80s?
MJN: Basically in 1983 that's when we had a local struggle ... as a teenager basically, I was involved somehow in the struggle because I was a member of the COSAS at school and I was also a member of the debating team ... I felt that there was a need for a change. I saw it from that side. However I was part of the system so I fell for it and it was exciting for me to realise that if I had to go and catch the bakery and get bread and all those things, we used to call it "go tshwara bakery" for instance, all those things. It was a very exciting moment however, very threatening at the same time.
DM: Did you get into trouble with the authorities?
MJN: Yes, I did get into trouble with the authorities because they took me , because I was the member of the COSAS, they took me to jail ,the forces at that time. They questioned me about the friend of mine who was the president at school, they questioned me about him. In this case I wasn't fully involved in the system, I was only friends with the guy who was doing this job but nevertheless yes, I was only caught once.
DM: Were your perspectives on activities and everything informed by your mother's work as a domestic worker, her experiences in life as well? How was it for her as a domestic worker? Did she have a good time or was she ill-treated ... was it difficult for her? With some domestic work it's a different story.
MJN: No, basically she was fine because the gentleman she was working for was from England, he was quite a very humble guy. I went there and visited a couple of times and even slept there - him and his wife were very humble. I had a good time there. And the same time, she did not treat me the same as she treated the child of the ...
DM: The people who were employing her?
MJN: Exactly, exactly. She was very strict for us. Nevertheless, she had a very good time, the gentleman was very polite, the lady was very polite. I would assume that we have different kinds of people. But nevertheless she was excellent.
DM: One of the slogans during the 1980s amongst COSAS, was 'liberation before education' ...
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Now being someone who was obviously very close to your education and your principal how did you deal with that kind of thrust of the student activities?
MJN: It was very difficult. I mean liberation before education was a slogan by COSAS. However at Khutlo Tharo, where I attended, we changed it. We said people, we can't be liberated if we are not educated in the first place. So what we did was that we changed it to say then, be educated so that you can be liberated because you can't be liberated unless you know something about yourself or about the society that we live in. So we changed it and the students fell for it, they all did well. That was the profile that we did ask.
DM: Okay, and when did you graduate, when did you get your grade 12, your matric or whatever ... what year was that?
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 3
MJN: I got it in 1989.
DM: 1989?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Okay, by that stage obviously, you had made some kind of decision about what you were interested in doing. What had drawn you in terms of your studies and what you were interested in?
MJN: When I finished matric in 1989 I went at the (?) Hotel and was a waiter there and I was a cashier there and I even worked at reception. Then the manager of the hotel took me for the hotel management study, which I got a diploma on that. From there in 1994 I went for a degree in B. Admin and B. Education again - I went for that and it was quite well ... my aim was basically to become a lawyer. I wanted to become a jurist, to say the least. Unfortunately the funds could not meet the relevant requirements so I went for B Admin and B. Ed..
DM: So you started working at a time, all those jobs that you have described, at a time when all the political changes started happening in the country in the early 1990s?
MJN: Yes.
DM: How did you see things ... as things were changing, Mandela was released and negotiations were taking place ... how did you see your own future in that context? Were you afraid, were you looking forward? What did you expect was going to happen?
MJN: Basically I expected a lot from the system, in fact from the old political scenario, I expected a lot. However, I expected that everything would be like a plate on the table ... however it did not go that well. After I resigned from the hotel it was on the basis that Mandela said everybody should go to school. I resigned from the hotel and I went to the university and unfortunately I did not see what I expected, it was a different story.
DM: Just tell us a little bit about what you expected and what you saw?
MJN: What I was expected was that I will see a country that will be free and education as a requirement for life would be a free thing. Unfortunately I did not see that - it is what I expected but I did not see that. At the very same time the system changed you know, from the past regime into the new regime. You know I prefer personally to go to the past regime ... because it was strict and disciplined, in my perspective. However that's what did not auger well for the whole life, as I will put it.
DM: Okay, let's follow that a little bit. When you say 'strict and disciplined' ... what kind of strictness and what kind of discipline are you talking about? I mean, that you liked a lot, that you think it was a good thing?
MJN: Dr McKinley, you know the past system did not put pressure on the ... let me rephrase that ... the past system did not allow wrongness you know, in front of rightness. In the first place I would assume that in the past system we never had murders, rapes and so forth as much as we have now. Because the past system was so pure in applying the law. The law now is applied but at the very same time the law contradicts itself - that's the problem. I remember Hugo Goutas (?), one of the jurists, that if you kill, you must be Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 4 killed, as the Islam would put it. That makes it balanced ... that whatever you do to me it must be done to you. Basically it relates to the law, the religious law. I'm not quite comfortable with the system now. I read the Sunday Times last week and they spoke about how teachers are tired because they can not punish the learners anymore and if they cannot punish learners any more it means learners have got rights, more than teachers. That's where the problem starts. If you come late - if the school starts at 8 o'clock and you come at quarter past 8, what do I do as a teacher? I become confused because I can't in the first place, discipline you - corporal punishment - I have to do other measures that can discipline you but I can't do that now because the system does not allow me. The South African School Act does not allow that as a teacher. So, I'm left just like that.
DM: So your perspective would be one that a lack of discipline, application of the law has led to the kind of behaviour that we are seeing today? Is that what you would say?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Okay, what would you then say to somebody who said, hang on a minute, what about the racial component of the previous system, what about all of that, the oppression, you know what we were fighting against as the students in the 1980s?
MJN: I have always recalled the question of reconciliation. Reconciliation must be well defined, because reconciliation is not about me meeting you, you meeting me, reconciliation is an emotional excise. At the very same time it is a psychological exercise, that when I meet you, I meet you as a friend of mine, as a human being at the same time. So the perspective of racism is the question that it is not well defined. The law does not give the real perspective about what is exactly about racism. To be racist does not mean to hate you as white or to hate me as black, no that's not racism. Racism is an emotional content of a human being - you and me have got red blood, we die, we are fallible as human beings. At the very same time you and me have to reconcile emotionally and psychologically. I can marry your daughter and you can marry my daughter - that is how basically we close-up the question of racism. There is no way that racism can be defined in a categoric perspective, there is no way that it can be defined in that. It has to be a psychic matter, that's how you define racism.
DM: So how would you then .... once 1994 happened, the elections happened and everything ... how would you describe, as someone who has thought about these things clearly yourself, the way in which things have turned out? You mentioned that you are not happy with some of the lack of discipline, with lack of law and order, but how would you make sense, in your world where you stay here, of the things that have happened since 1994, on that basis of what you were talking about?
MJN: Exactly. In 1994 ... in fact I voted in Qwa Qwa - that's where I was working at the University there. The scenario that I see now basically is that we don't have democracy in this country, in fact democracy is impossible. The scenario that I see is that I perceive that the system that we have now and that we had in the past - which I will never refer to - what we have now does not correlate with the human needs. Basically we are talking about human needs - remember the law of theory - the human needs are not met. So basically I cannot conclude personally, as a human being, that we are living in a free country.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 5
DM: When you say human needs give us an indication of what you mean by human needs, what kinds of human needs?
MJN: Physical, we start there. We have people who are poor - I'm not referring to blacks only, we have coloureds, we have whites we have, you know, Indians who are poor. The physical needs how do people ... you know in Belgium they have the system whereby every member of society is provided with some form of social security, whereby you can't see any person poor. The physical needs - if I cannot wear or have anything to eat therefore I'm deprived. But here, the person who decides on my behalf is eating well, he is having an X5 and so forth, but I can't have that. The second one is the esteem, self esteem. If you can assume when you look at schools or our kids ... your kid for example Dr McKinley ... they look at the computer anytime, start with the computer, but when it comes to the mental gymnastics he or she can't just explain ... therefore we have a problem of some form of mental deviation., I would assume. Whereby people, we don't build our society in the sense that we achieve what we actually wanted to achieve. Because freedom is impossible, democracy is impossible we can't have that.
DM: Are you saying as a general statement or in the context South Africa in post-1994 or are you making a general statement?
MJN: No, basically it's a general statement. Even in America, you go to America, they are practising neo-democracy, you come to South Africa it is neo-democracy, you go anywhere in the world where there is democracy and it is neo democracy. Because there is no way that we can have democracy, it is an impossible situation.
AV: Why do you think that is?
MJN: Pardon.
AV: Why do you think that is?
MJN: Basically pure democracy means that if you ... its like an ideal world, its like its heaven. Pure democracy is heaven, it is something that we cannot achieve. You know from my perspective ... let me just explain democracy. Democracy comes from two concepts demos means people, cratis means to rule. So now, rule by the people, can people tell you what to do? They will tell you what to do. At the very same time you are the one who take the decision - is this right or is this wrong? Now our politicians in the country will tell them what to do - we want houses, there will be a new house. In two weeks time the house is cracked and it falls down. The very same person who tells you what to do is seated at the mansion ... so democracy is impossible. Even Aristotle did mention that democracy is just not pure, it just can't happen.
DM: ... just to follow this a bit more before we come back to some more personal questions. The kind of democracy or the kind of system of the government that has come about since 1994, how would you describe it? How would you describe the kind of government you are living under, that we are all living under right now? How would you describe that, given your views?
MJN: In the first place it is capitalist. It's capitalist in the sense that you know, the government works in the sense that people earn on behalf of others. Let me make an Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 6 example. I read a paper, the Daily Sun on Tuesday, where they were talking about social development. The government accrues tax, we pay tax of course, even if you buy chappies you pay a value added tax. At the very same time that money does not go to the government directly, it goes through certain individuals who take decisions. In other words, the government that we have now is capitalist ... it works for people who are already in government ... it is what we call in Political Science, the rewards. If I have been involved in the political system or in the struggle for democracy or in the struggle for a change of the system, that would mean that I have to be rewarded. That's why in government you find people saying to relatives - nepotism - because they have to be rewarded for what they did in the past system. Therefore it's a capitalist government.
DM: And I am assuming that you are ... or let me not assume anything actually. Let me ask you , you have described it but in terms of where you live and in your life, what does that mean? How do you experience that ...?
MJN: Basically I am not working at the moment. I used to work at the college ... and my experience is that the government does not plough back to the people who put it there. In other words, if I can't work as a graduate with a B.Com tech and so forth, it means that the government has not put enough to the people. So therefore, as I said, it's a form of government that concludes on the basis of itself, not on the basis of the people- of itself. The Mpumalanga community got their land, I think about a week ago they got their land, after about thirty years of struggling and ten years struggling through the system. They got their land ... very, very hard. The land commissioner could not approve that because the land commissioner had things that he had to get from them, some money to get from them. So, it was very difficult for them to get the land. Therefore, my life is not at all well. I can't agree to see someone suffering while at the very same time I'm doing better. I mean a glass of water will make a difference to me but a glass of water will never make a difference to anyone. So the government does not plough well. The government must plough back to the people of which it doesn't do. That's why I referred to it earlier as a capitalist.
DM: Just to go back to your own trajectory. We stopped where you were talking about going to college. What college did you go to?
MJN: I went to the Qwa Qwa University.
DM: You went to the university?
MJN: Yes.
DM: And you were studying to get what degree?
MJN: I studied Batchelor of Administration.
DM: And this was in the mid '90s right?
MJN: Yes in the mid '90s.
DM: Tell us how your experience was? I think you are probably the first person we have talked to here who has gone to University. How is that experience for someone coming from the townships ... there are not many people who go to university usually?
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 7
MJN: Basically I went to the University through TEFSA - the Tertiary Fund of South Africa. And it funded me up until I got my degree, even honours and it was a very terrible experience, I even worked at the tuck shop of the school, at the dinning hall. I worked there and my experience was that typically white institutions were well financed and students from white institutions were well preferred when it comes to employment. So to me it was disadvantage. However, I did manage to finish my degree through the funds and it was not a very good experience. However you had to persevere, to make it in to the system. So the system was not very good at that time.
DM: Just give us a couple of examples of what wasn't good at the university, what kind of things?
MJN: In the first place, we had for example, financial exclusion, that was the first one. If I don't have money to register I can not attend. At the very same time, TEFSA financed students at typically white universities, mostly to register and so forth. And again the question of stationery or the allowance as I will put it. It was very difficult to get an allowance and the residence fee was one of the aspects which basically put us aback. But nevertheless you turn to develop with that - that's why I worked at the dinning hall and I was dishing out to other students. To me it was a nice experience. However, the system did not provide enough for the development of students in the country. That's where the problem starts.
DM: Tell us, how did your friends and peers here, respond when you got accepted and you went to university. I imagine most of your friends, most of your people, probably think that going to university is quite a good thing, quite a privileged thing to do. How did they respond?
MJN: It was very exhilarating I would say, because most of them were about to go there and some were already university graduates. They were very exhilarated for me to go to the university and study, in fact they even visited me that side. It was a very exciting experience for them because when I came back, when I graduated, they were very happy. So I would assume that personally it was not a new thing because to go to a university from a disadvantaged community, as a black man, it was like a privilege, like you have money at home for you, you can afford to do that. They were very excited.
AV: Now you know you were speaking earlier about some of the problems that you faced at Qwa Qwa University?
MJN: Yes.
AV: During the 1990s there was also a broad kind of movement amongst the students for what was called transformation?
MJN: Exactly.
AV: How were you involved in those things at the university at all?
MJN: Exactly. Basically I was a General Secretary. I started as the president of the Pan African Student Organisation (PASO) and then I went to become the General Secretary of the SRC, then I became the member of the Broad Transformation Forum. The system at that time, we had a professor, German .... and I was involved and made sure that all Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 8 students were able to finish their degree, even though there were not well financed but there were be able to finish their degree ... where there are inputs at the university, there must be an output. What is their contribution to the society - that was the main question. So I was greatly involved at all costs - as the General Secretary of the SRC, as President of PASO and as General Secretary of the Broad Transformation Forum, the BTF, which changed the amalgamation of universities and colleges, as they now call them, technikons.
AV: And just within the kind of student political world , SASCO (the South African Students Congress) was the dominant organisation. What made you to gravitate towards PASO?
MJN: I am a Pan Africanist. My belief was that an African man was not made, was not made to be poor. So my involvement in the Black Consciousness Movement of Stephen Bantu Biko - which we celebrated a week ago - was that a black man has to develop himself. But then to develop himself, a black man has to be resourced because he was deprived of the resources. Now that's what made me to be consciously involved with the Pain Africanist movement. That you can't get education if you are black. When I'm referring to black you should be careful - I'm not referring to the colour - I'm referring to the mindset, not the colour, but the mindset which was basically depressed by people from the West and East. So that's why I got involved in the Pan-Africanist ideology and so forth.
DM: You graduated with honours, you got a BA Honours - what year was that?
MJN: Basically I graduated in 1997 for B Admin degree and in 1998 I got a BA Honours in Political Science ... at the very same time in 1998, I got the scholarship to go to Belgium, I was in Gent at the French University I would assume that you know Professor Doorn. DM: I know the name. MJN: He was my supervisor in Belgium. That was in 1998, that's when the University employed me, from 1998.
DM: Okay, and how long were you in Belgium?
MJN: I was in Belgium for three months.
DM: And how was that ... this is very interesting ... how was that experience? Was that the first time out of South Africa for you?
MJN: Yes it was for the first time. It was excellent. However, I missed atchar, you know atchar?
DM: Yes.
MJN: When I was there I spoke to Ben Schoeman, he is a friend of mine whom I worked with. I spoke to him to bring atchar to Belgium and some pap. However I realised one thing that in Europe they don't sleep, there are lot of things. When I came back I realised that here in South Africa people sleep - that's why they call Africa black, it's the dark continent because people sleep deeply. But in Europe I would go to IT lab at one o'clock Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 9 in the morning. So people there don't sleep. The experience there was better, a little bit of racist but yet it was a very excellent experience.
DM: And then you arrived back and what happened next when you came back home?
MJN: When I came back home I was employed by the Qwa Qwa University, with Professor Louis Ferreira ... I worked at the university for a couple of years with first and second years but unfortunately I got sick then I had to come home.
DM: Sorry I know this is personal ... but what illness were you suffering from?
MJN: Basically it was sort of tuberculosis. Nevertheless you know, in the African tradition we have things that they work on us. I did recover.
DM: You did recover?
MJN: Yes.
DM: When you got ill you came back here to this community?
MJN: Yes
DM: Tell us, you had been gone for quite some time obviously, you had gone to university, you were gone several years. When you came back that was in the late '90s right?
MJN: Early 2000.
DM: Early 2000?
MJN: Yes.
DM: How did you find coming back into this community after so many years, after you left? What did you find here?
MJN: When I came here I was very angry when I saw the environment because in terms of the system, this is a suburb and we are not supposed to be divided ... I started a movement, I spoke to people and said let's do something about it. I did that but unfortunately there are sometimes back-stabbers and so forth and I had to withdraw. So when I came here I did not see anything fine, even now nothing is fine. So I tried to change it but due to people becoming naïve and envious in the system I decided to withdraw.
DM: Tell us more specifically, when you say it wasn't fine ... what did you see specifically that you didn't like in this community?
MJN: In the first place the infrastructure was not well and again, the people around here, especially the kids and so forth, you know they have a way of entertaining themselves or let me say extra-mural activities. So I tried to establish how can I do better, right now I'm still in the process of establishing what we call soccer for the people, so they can play soccer cause I know that would attract the younger ones and they would come and watch their fathers playing ... I'm still trying. I don't know whether Mr Makhanya will come and play, I will put him as a goalkeeper.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 10
DM: And did you come back and stay in your family home when you came back? Was your mother still alive?
MJN: Exactly, my mother was still alive.
DM: And is she still working?
MJN: No she is not working.
DM: She is retired now?
MJN: Yes.
DM: How does she survive?
MJN: We have a brother at home. He is a caretaker for us so that's how we survive.
DM: Okay, and so for the last while you have been unemployed now?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: Just tell us a little bit about your own experience in terms of seeking work in this area or else where?
MJN: Seeking work is very difficult in South Africa, in fact around here, but I will put it globally in South Africa. Because to get employed you must be the member of the ANC. If I am a member of the DA or ID it is very difficult to get a job because of the very same thing that I spoke about earlier, about the rewards, that if I was struggling in 1960s and so forth I must be employed. So getting employment is very difficult. I have applied at the Department of Foreign Affairs and so forth. I have applied a lot but I just can't get a response, I'm asking myself. However I got information from a friend of mine who is a counsellor around here. He told me no, be a member of the ANC then you will get a job, I see your CV every time there but you can't just get employed because you are not a member of the ANC. So that is some form of paying back the people who did what they did at that time.
DM: What do you think about that? I mean how does that make you feel when you know that you are fairly qualified, you've got degrees ... how does that make you feel?
MJN: You know it makes me feel very bad because I believe that I can contribute to the society. I mean at that time I won't be working for the government but I will be working for the people which basically puts the government there, so I will be working for the people. I feel terribly bad if I see someone who is not well and you know he can't get anything to eat, it terribly hurts me. But that's how the system puts it. As much as they would do now, the president would be Jacob Zuma or whoever, it's just a power struggle at the very same time at the expense of the people, that's a problem, the people. It makes me very sad.
DM: Just out of interest have you applied to do teaching jobs?
MJN: Teaching jobs yes, I have applied.
DM: Here, at high schools?
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 11
MJN: High schools yes, but unfortunately I do not have what you call the higher education diploma that is required for teaching because I did an honours so I'm qualified to teach at colleges, technikons and universities.
DM: But not at the high schools?
MJN: Yes, at the high school I'm not. If I go to the high school I have to be the principal, I can't teach.
DM: Because of your qualifications?
MJN: Exactly.
DM: As someone who spent quite a lot of time doing/getting education, what do you think when you look at the educational system now, when you look at young kids, students, what are your thoughts?
MJN: Terrible.
DM: Why?
MJN: The education system in this country ... remember that we have got the OBE from New Zealand, also from Australia and a little bit from America. That system does not apply in the country, it is impossible that it can apply. Because the scenario in New Zealand and Australia does not apply in South Africa, therefore the system of education is bad. That's why I said earlier, that when I read in the newspaper, Sunday Times, about teachers been stretched, being threatened, teachers being punished or teachers being beaten - it is because the system itself, of education, is not disciplined. How can I give a learner a right and depress the right of an educator? That makes it imbalanced, therefore the system does not apply. At the very same time, a second thought, is that our curriculum does not include technology - computer science for instance, as part of the curriculum, the framework they have applied does not include computing. Right now I can go to any school, or on Monday I go to any school, you'll never find a situation whereby there is a class for computing. Computing is our world, technology is our world today so you will never find it there. Scania, the company, provided computers for schools which I have never mentioned but there are no classes for computers. It means our education system is basically flawed and the way that it is promoted cannot meet the modern standard. That's why I would say the traditional system of discipline and modesty are applicable. So we have a flawed education system.
DM: A few more questions and then we'll wrap up. You clearly have strongly held opinions and have thought through a lot about these things. When you look at ... I'm not talking about education and the politics necessarily but what I would call the social fabric of our society, the general social fabric ... now, thirteen years after 1994 what do you see?
MJN: It has broken, the fibre has broken. Really I would assume that you would ask me that question, of the social fibre of our society - it has been broken. Because the law or rather the system in the country allows more rights than restraining. I mean Section 39 does provide for restriction but it does not give enough preventative measures to engage into the Act itself. When you go right now you can sleep with a child of fifteen, sixteen Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 12 years old, because now the system gives more money and less norms and values, more money and less norms and values. Therefore our social fibre has broken down. We don't have norms and values and principles are not applied any more. That's why at some point n time, you ask yourself why is this lady, this little one dressed like this? In a traditional mode you will never see a woman dressed in a mini skirt, that would be a disgrace in the society. It happens now and that's why it leads to the devaluation of the very same norms and values. They have been devaluated because of the system itself. Our system is not quite valuable, therefore our social fibre has been broken, it has been really shattered ... we don't have it now. I mean if you look at ETV in the early hours of Sunday morning you will see things which are not valuable in terms of the human beings. But our kids do watch that and they want to practice it, which brings our norms and values devalued at the very same time. Therefore our social fibre is not really valuable at all. (Change of tape)
DM: You just described what you think is wrong, the things that are not there ... I want to ask you what is it that you would like to see happening?
MJN: Basically I would like to see in civil society, the observations of norms and the values which were basically upheld in the past, should be made to be part of the law. If I am a youngster and you are an adult there should be that relationships which basically should be restrained. However that does not apply in the country. In other words, what I wish to have in the country is that the law must be strict, stringent and at the very same time it must provide for other maladies that might occur. Because in our law in our country, I mean the Constitution Act 108 it has got a lot of flaws. And the Bill of Right which is Chapter 2 of the Constitution has got to be done in a way that, or reconstructed in a way that, it provide the stringent measures for the perpetrators of the law ... I would assume in China and other countries which are basically Islamic, they are very stringent ... you would never find a person who has raped in China, who has raped in Saudi Arabia for instance that doesn't happen. Because if you kill in Saudi Arabia you must be killed, which makes a balance. Therefore the law in this country, in fact the system in this country, are not balanced. Balance is the only way that we can manage. For example in business if you look at platinum, gold and other commodities it is not balanced, its' a capitalist country. People work to earn for themselves which is very monopolistic and therefore it does not create corporate responsibility and that in itself makes people more poor than they would be. Therefore, what I would like to see is partners, that's my perspective.
DM: Just one quick question, you wanted to be a lawyer, you have obviously studied the law quite a bit and everything else ... Do you have any involvement at all with people here who are helping out with legal issues or problems in the community?
MJN: I help a lot. In fact even right now when Mr Makhanya came and picked me up in I was helping people. I even do business plans you know ...some people come to me and ask me to help them with letters and so forth. I basically consider myself as a social animal therefore I assist anybody who comes to me. If I've got the knowledge I assist anybody who comes to me. I think it's my social responsibility.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 13
DM: What do you think ... not specifically the larger questions which you were addressing ... but of the legal system in particular, you know every thing from the magistrates court which is at the local level, upwards?
MJN: Very flawed, very flawed. I mean if you look at the magistrates court, the Hgh Court up until the Constitutional Court, very flawed. In the sense that you have the jurists who are qualified to give reasonable sentences. To give reasonable judgements. However they are not informed about how does that judgement get implemented. So the legal system in the country is very flawed. I cannot kill you and be sentenced for two years and someone who robs a bank be sentenced to ten years. That, according to me, does not auger well with my understanding of the law. I still refer you to Hugo Gootes (?) ...that if you do unto me then let it be done unto you. So the legal system in this country is very flawed. I rob you right now I'm given two months, I kill Mr Makhanya I'm given ten years, I rob a bank I'm given two days, that does not make sense Remember last time when Minister Manto Msimang was fighting over Makhanya at Sunday Times about the revelations in the newspaper, which proves that came at the wrong time, the Deputy Minister is dismissed and this information comes in. Why it did not come before ... she has been in Botswana, eight months of investigations, but why did it come now - which proves that the system itself is flawed. So there is no way that we can have a balanced legal system.
DM: And just a couple of last things. When you look into the future, to the things that you want for your self, what is it that you would like to happen for you, in your own life?
MJN: Basically in the first place I want to change the system. In fact I want to change the world, how people perceive the world. Because what I have seen now is that people have lost the relationship with the creator ... they have lost the relationship . My aim is to put back what God placed at the beginning, that's what I want to do. As a jurist, if I get there, I wish to put the law of the lord which basically is the basis of everything. That is what I wish to see myself, not necessarily being a pastor or being a member of any religious congregation but I wish to see myself changing the system so that our norms and values, principles can be observed which basically is what leads to a lot of death and HIV/AIDS and so forth. That's because the norms and values, the principles have been devalued that's where the problems starts. So I wish to see myself changing all that mindset, to create a new being, which is the original people, that's how I would like to see myself in the future.And I would be very happy if you can help me Dr McKinley .
DM: (laughing) I once thought about doing law and then I went and got a doctorate in politics. Lastly, the last thing that we always ask our interviewees - is there anything that you would like to say that we haven't asked you, that we haven't covered, give you an opportunity to say whatever it is that you would like to say? MJN: Not that much. Basically I am very happy that I am part of the interview. I would not say that there is anything that you haven not asked me, I mean we have covered everything except one thing that I don't think we should cover on the camera, but we will talk about this later on. DM: Okay, we can talk about that off the record.
Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 14
MJN: But nevertheless everything has been covered and I feel very comfortable and really I don't have anything except one thing we have not spoken about - religion, which basically is the masterpiece of the universe, the cosmos. I think it would be much more better to go back and relate man and God, which is basically the beginning ... so that is one of the aspects that you never asked me, but nevertheless I've enjoyed the interview and I'm quite comfortable.
DM: Thank you very much for giving your time.
MJN: Thank you.
MINUTES - 53:23 Motseki Johannes Ngake: 2007-09-12: 15
Transcript: Download (82 KB)
SAHA
Creator: McKinley, Dale
Ngake, Motseki
Veriava, Ahmed
Ngake, Motseki
Veriava, Ahmed
Contributing Institutions: SAHA; MATRIX: The Center for Humane Arts, Letters and Social Sciences Online at Michigan State University
Contributor: Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Biography: Thirty-eight years old at the time of the interview, Motseki Johannes Ngake was born and bred in Sebokeng. His father died when he was very young and so he was raised by his general labourer, single mother, alongside his two siblings. He was a Congress of South African Students (COSAS) activist in the 1980s and after gaining his matric went to work at a Johannesburg hotel. He received support from his employers to attend the University in Qwa Qwa where he received a BA Honours in Education and Politics. He taught there and then returned to Sebokeng a few years ago when he fell ill with TB. He says that he has recovered but is unable to get a teaching job.
Description: This interview with Motseki Johannes Ngake was conducted by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava in Sebokeng in 2007 as part of the South African History Archive's Alternative History Project, titled 'Forgotten Voices in the Present'.
Date: September 12, 2007
Location: Sebokeng, Gauteng, Republic of South Africa
Format: Audio/mp3
Language: English
Rights Management: For educational use only.
Digitizer: AL3280_A3.12.1
Source: SAHA collection AL3280