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An interview with unemployed youth Happy Jabulani Malindi from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
An interview with unemployed youth Happy Jabulani Malindi from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
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Happy Malindi, an unemployed youth from Sebokeng, during an oral history interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
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Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-09-08
Location of interview: Sebokeng, Gauteng
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Happy Jabulani Malindi
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_SEB_MalindiHappyJabulani_20070908 INTERVIEW WITH HAPPY JABULANI MALINDI.
Dale McKinley (DM): Ok ... if you can just tell us your full name?
Happy Jabulani Malindi (HJM): My full name is Happy Jabulani Malindi.
DM: Ok Happy and how old are you?
HJM: I am 18 years old.
DM: 18?
HJM: Yes.
DM: And were you born in this community?
HJM: I was born in this community but I don't know which house.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): In this house?
HJM: Basically I don't know which house.
DM: How long have you been living in this particular house now?
HJM: Almost all my life.
DM: Almost all your life?
HJM: Yes.
DM: So you in some ways ... as an 18 yr old ... you are someone who is a post-1994 kid aren't you?
HJM: Yes.
DM: What memories do you remember as a child here?
HJM: Yoo! I have got a lot of memories.
DM: Tell us about them.
HJM: Life was never that good like in1994 ... if I can show you or give you examples. We used to run away from cops before 1994, we used to run away from cops, I think it was in 1991 or 1992 somewhere there ... we used to run away from cops because there Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 1 were a lot of politicians involved in this community, they used to sing, offend cops. Then after 1994 things began to change whereby now.... there was this ... this dangerous area which was called Zone 7, that area was very dangerous. So, whenever we could go and live in Zone 7 we come across many things like people trying to offend us, people trying to beat us, trying to even insult us. There were many things ... but since from 1994 things changed.
DM: When you were talking about early 1994, you were a very small child then?
HJM: I was a very small child.
DM: You could see what was going on?
HJM: I could see.
DM: Now when you are saying people were insulting you, what kinds of people were those? I mean were they just tsotsis, political people ... or what?
HJM: Mainly they were politicians. Like if your father was involved in...was an ANC member, so maybe they were IFP, maybe the other one was IFP. The main dangerous one was the IFP, the Inkatha Freedom one. If they could hear that your father was an ANC member then you have a lot to pay for, because they would come and insult you maybe physically. They could turn physically aggressive towards you. So that was the way it was.
AV: And why was Zone 7 more of a problem than anywhere else?
HJM: I could say zone 7 was more of a problem than any other areas because mainly the politicians of this area, of this community mostly originated from Zone 7. They lived in zone 7, so they would come and try to recruit more people from this other side, so that's why it was the most dangerous one. I have seen a lot of it because I went to school in zone 7.
AV: Do you remember the elections in 1994?
HJM: Yes, I do remember the elections.
AV: What do you remember about it, from your child's perspective?
HJM: You know from my child's perspectives, what I can say is that I was just happy because people were happy. I just loved each and every moment because people loved each and every moment. For instance when I see my father happy, I also turn happy. So they usually say jaa...; In Zulu they say ya manje ngi ya phila manje, yonke in to eya lonka, kosho khuti sizo bheka I life e nxolo manje (which means everything its good, its changing and you are going to experience a better future). So what I can say is that ... the memory I recall is when this Winnie Mandela. The memory that I have and the memory that I love mostly was the memory whereby Mr Mandela was walking towards the stage and so Winnie Mandela took his hand and raised it up and the crowd cheered ... that was the moment that I really enjoyed and loved.
DM: You were watching this on television?
HJM: Yes, I watched it on television.
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DM: And that made you feel good when you saw Mandela?
HJM: Yes.
DM: So in terms of your own house, growing up here with your family, how were things?
HJM: Things weren't really not good growing up here ... as you can see I came across a lot of things even though life started to show up right now ... but then, growing up here in this house, things were never that good.
DM: Can you give us examples of what you mean?
HJM: Like my mother was unemployed by that time, my father was working and he was the bread winner. So he even lost his job. So you see ... like when I go out with my friends sometimes I don't have money. When you come home sometimes they would tell you that today ... we are eating bread, there is no money for maize meal, If you watch sometimes there is no TV, you have no stoves; you cook with prima stove, the little thing which has too much smoke. You see, just bad memories, bad memories.
AV: And how did you make sense of that as a child? How did you understand what was going on?
HJM: You know, having parents who love you sometimes gives you an understanding. My parents told me that, look at this, we are black people from the black community we do suffer and we don't know how ... so, for you to have a nice life is up to you to make it up and go to school and get educated because we can't give you wealth but we can give you education. So, what I can say is that my parents they said education is the key to success. Don't stress about things which you never inherit, which you never even made. So that's how I came to live with the situation.
DM: And did you take that message to heart when you started going to school?
HJM: No, I never listened to my parents. I never paid attention to my parents. I never took the message to my heart, because what I thought and what I saw was that I go to school and then let's say I have to go to tertiary education ... who is going to pay at tertiary because my mum...right now I can say my mum she is a bread winner, my father doesn't work. So I asked myself when I go to tertiary who is going to pay for me? Who is going to do this and this for me? I asked myself too many questions of which whereby I started skipping school. I never went to school until I came to the sense again that no man, my father said this and that, I went again to school, but here I am now, no school and I am not working. I am just an ordinary guy.
DM: Ok we are going to take you back a little bit when you started in primary school. What was school like in the mid-1990s? Tell us a little bit about how school was like at that time for you as a 7/8 year old?
AV: Remember your first day? Tell us about it?
HJM: Yes, I remember my first day, I was even beaten in my first day you know. We arrived late so the principal ...that whereby corporal punishment was still there ... so they just punished me - it was in my first day. But in those days school for me was still Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 3 the same ...still the same as I went through school in secondary life and so and so. Because you could see that in class we could even share maybe six people to share one book from primary, six people could share one book, there were no chairs ... in iSizulu we used to say msihlalisane (let's sit together), things like that. So nothing major, it's just that back in those days we knew that when we go to school you go to school to learn.
DM: And you took it seriously?
HJM: We took it seriously.
DM: You went to a local school primary school here, right?
HJM: Yes, I went to a local school.
DM: Tell us a little about the other kids that were there, what kind of families, kids ... at school?
HJM: You see it hurts a lot to say that you have a lunch box to eat and the other child doesn't have a lunch box to eat. It even hurts to see that you have shoes to go to school but the other child doesn't have the shoes to go school. Those were the main problems that we came across, seeing people living with, poverty, starvation, they suffered a lot. Ok sometimes I could cry and say this and that, but what I can say - my parents tried harder to give me that thing that they had. But other kids they never had the chance ... they could to school in the morning with an empty stomach and leave school in the afternoon still with an empty stomach, with no shoes, with no uniform, with no covered books. With no bags, just a plastic. So those were the things that we came across.
DM: And were those kids that didn't have those kinds of things treated differently than the other kids?
HJM: What I could say is they didn't have those things. They did not have those things because you could see there was this thing ... we have meetings at school, they could say at a certain date there is a meeting you should come with your parents, then you could see through them that these parents don't have a good life. They don't have a good life at all.
DM: Were those kids who didn't have those kinds of things ... were they treated differently from the other kids?
HJM: They didn't have those things. You see, we could have meetings at school ... you should tell your parents that on that date there is a meeting and you should come with your parents. The you could see that no man, these parents At school we treated the same.
AV: Can I ask you a question. You know, I was speaking to some guys from Orange Farm, also young, and they were talking about cheese boys. Do you use the term?
HJM: Ja, we do use the term, we do use the term. There is this thing maybe, I have a phone, my phone is 1100 and the other one has a phone maybe has a IG phone or has Samsung D600 phone, he wears Cavellas, what can I say, Soviets, the top things that the other kids could never even reach. Then he could walk on the street and brag about it and says ja I am the main man, trying to impress ... I am going to say this but I think the cheese boys impress chicks. By so being cheese boys they are trying to impress chicks. So then we - I am going to use the term but I know the term is not good - we call ourselves niggars. We niggars come across these cheese boys and say in Zulu, we say Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 4 kuyasekezwa, we hustle for each and everything that we want and we are going to get it. But these cheese boys they don't, they don't work hard, they don't hustle for each and everything they have. But we niggars and pantsulas we hustle each and every time to get what we want. That's how it is ... cheese boys.
DM: So I mean just using that ... however you call yourself ...is it mostly along like people you consider to be in a different class? You know, here's these that are here, other in the middle and maybe those that are up here?
HJM: Ja it is mostly like that. Cheese boys are on top off the list.
DM: When you say on top of the list ... they are the ones that accepted by everybody, are very popular, no?
HJM: They are very popular but they are not accepted by everyone. That's how it is, they are very popular and they are even very, very much hated by people.
DM: By those who are down, who you say struggle for everything?
HJM: Yes, by those who hustle for each and every thing.
AV: Just a question. I mean ... and you can tell me if you don't want to answer me ... the term niggar, why do you refer to yourself as niggar?
HJM: You know what I can tell you about the term niggar ... ok it started as a slavery name, we all grew up knowing that niggar is a term for slavery people, it was used for slavery people. But then as we grew up we realised that there are no longer such things. So in this future right now, I can say niggar is used as a stylish word.
AV: But it's an American word?
HJM: Yes, it's an American word.
AV: And if for instance one of your friends were to start calling another one of your friends' kaffir, how would you respond to that?
HJM: What I can say ... you know lack of knowledge and lack of understanding is the one that kills our black people. Because he knows that the word kaffir was used to diss someone. The word kaffir was used to diss someone ... therefore, he's going to get angry or turn physically aggressive towards that person. Right now the word niggar, if they call you a niggar it shows you that you are a top dog you see, you know each and every thing concerning life. So if you call him a niggar he is going to accept, all because of a lack of knowledge, so that's how it is.
DM: When was it ... when do you remember when you were growing up, when it first became important for you about clothes, because very clearly for the younger generation clothes have always been important ... as you say, you identify people by what they are wearing. You know, if he's wearing Soviet, Fila shoes and you say wow ... when can you remember that that became important for you?
HJM: As soon as I started falling in love, that's when I realised that clothes do exist .
DM: As soon as you realised it was important to impress girls?
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HJM: Yes.
DM: Ok that's understandable. What age were you at that time?
HJM: I can't remember exactly, maybe I was doing grade 4 or 3, maybe I was about 9, 10 years.
AV: I just want also to ask you about ... in terms of this area and young men ... like I know when I was growing up and so forth, there was a lot of the kinds of kids that were considered cool were those who were fast guns, quick money and easy women?
HJM: Ja that's what I've just said but in another sense. You see, when you're a niggar you are entitled to a gun, you are entitled to women, you are entitled to cars you see. So then in this area mostly we are like that, that's were by chicks notice you, that's whereby chicks notice that this man is a real born hustler. He is very cool but when you come as acheese boy we don't say its cool, we don't say fancy staff, we just say haa ke pari (this is a coward) - so then you are considered un-cool.
DM: How do you relate...I mean obviously you are in a family where your father has been involved in quite a lot of activities ... political, community etc. ... when you talked about the 1980s and 90s and all sort of things were happening ... when you look at that generation - it was cool in the 1980s if you were a comrade and if you were hard and if you were fighting, now its changed. 1994 comes, no more apartheid and the struggle is over and the shifts ... it's not about politics, politics doesn't matter anymore, it doesn't mean anything. What do you think about that ... I mean coming from the background that you come from?
HJM: You know when I sit and listened to my father talking about his growing up ages, when he grew up back then, growing up as a comrade, I prefer those things. Because he said to me if you are a man you could even get arrested if you are not working. Right now we just bounce around the street, we just bounce, stand in the corners, smoke and look at chicks. They don't care whether you work or don't work. So, basically what I am trying to say, I could say life was better back then than right now.
AV: Can I ask you ... in this area are there any youngsters that you know that you can say, hey that one is political and so forth ...?
HJM: Sure, there are many youngsters who are political. There many youngsters who are very political. For instance, I have this friend, he is very political, he could tell about his trip from way back then until right now - you see he is very political. When he talks he is political. Ja, there are very active politicians.
DM: So, like when you were in high school here, was there a local COSAS branch that was active in this area?
HJM: No.
DM: No, nothing like that?
HJM: No nothing like that.
DM: ANC Youth League?
HJM: ANC Youth League was there and I was an ANC Youth League member.
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DM: So you did join the League?
HJM: Yes I did join the League.
DM: When did you join the league, many years ago?
HJM: No, not many years ago. Maybe three months back.
DM: Very recently?
HJM: Yes recently.
DM: Tell us why you made that decision?
HJM: You know when one just sits at home doing nothing, opportunities can't come. So when you involve yourself in many things that's whereby you are going to realise that opportunities like this like that, are there. Right now you have to go and find opportunities. Opportunities don't come as opportunities so you have to go and hunt for them.
DM: And what kinds of opportunities would you imagine would come from being a member of the Youth League, from being involved in the Youth League?
HJM: For instance, we sometimes we deal with orphanages, we try to boost orphanages, and sometimes we deal with crime. There are those who are been selected to patrol - things like that you see. There are opportunities mainly if you have been chosen to patrol because you are going to be involved with cops and once being involved with cops it is up to you whether to push yourself to become a cop or what - it is up to you. It is in your capacity whether you know how to think or not.
AV: And ...like Love Life do they have a centre here?
HJM: Ja they have a centre here.
AV: Are there lots of young men and women that are members of Love Life?
HJM: Ja there are many members.
AV: Have you yourself ever been part of Love Life programme?
HJM: You know I once tried to be a Love Life member but I pulled out.
AV: Why?
HJM: Things which take place there. No, no.
AV: Tell us about them?
HJM: You know truly speaking, truly speaking. I know this is going to hurt but I might as well come out with it. We know that HIV/AIDS is dangerous, HIV/AIDS kills, HIV/AIDS you can get it by this way, by that way, to prevent HIV/AIDS you should do this, you should do that. Those questions since they discovered that HIV/AIDS has been there, HIV/AIDS has never stopped being a topic. It is always the centre of attention. You come here it is HIV/AIDS, you go there it is HIV/AIDS. So truly speaking I have had it Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 7 with HIV/AIDS, they always say HIV/AIDS. There are more important issues we could deal with than just HIV/AIDS.
DM: Do you think most of your peers, in other words your friends and everything, take it seriously in terms of their own sexual life?
HJM: Ja they do take it seriously, they do take it seriously, they do take it seriously, they do.
DM: I know this is a very touchy question and you don't have to answer if you don't want - do you know many people and any other friends that are HIV-positive and also that died because of HIV/AIDS?
HJM: I had a brother who died of HIV.
AV: I am trying to understand your kind of position around AIDS. Is it partly because you don't want to be reminded of the possibility of death?
HJM: To me that's the main issue. Once you get to know someone who is HIV positive, who died because of the certain death, it is kind of hard to cope while people bring up about the same death that took the person that you appreciated and which you loved, you see. That's the main issue I am trying to deal with right now. So, that's the main thing that made me pull out.
DM: Ok you mentioned earlier that most of the time since you have left high school, there is nothing much to do other than just hanging around the street corners talking to girls and everything else ... When you said you have to search for opportunities - what other opportunities are there in this area for young men like yourself?
HJM: What I can say, in this area there are no opportunities. There are no opportunities. There are no opportunities. You could even tour around the area you could see that you will come across many people, many they just standing around the corners smoking, maybe gambling you see. There are no opportunities. We even appreciate Mr Bafana over here. When an opportunity occurred Mr Bafana will call and say bafethu its like this, its like that -let's go to maybe where we are having a march or something, then they could ... those youngsters he took they could even come with some little bit of money that he gave them you see, that's how, we look up to our elders for opportunities. Opportunities are rare in this area.
AV: Just a question ... amongst your friends, how many of them that are like around your age are working right now?
HJM: Amongst my friends ... usually we are four.
AV: Your crew, you are four?
HJM: Yes four and only one was working, but right now he is not working and the other two are at school
AV: And what work was he doing?
HJM: You know for me it was just like to take him out of bad things ... he worked at the garage.
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AV: As an attendant?
HJM: Ja as an attendant.
AV: Now this is the other thing you know I spoke to this young lady who is speaking about work and so forth ... I asked her, are there certain things you won't do and she said no she will never go work as a domestic worker. For yourself, are there certain things that you would not do?
HJM: Truly speaking I won't tolerate being a garden boy, I won't tolerate going out painting houses in suburb places, those kinds of work I won't do.
AV: Why?
HJM: You know as a person you have your own pride, you have your own sense to think of...sometimes I think ok, what if I go and work as a domestic worker and usually I am a person who loves chicks. What if I am in the garden and at this house then appeared a fine, good looking chick and I am busy making the garden over. No, I am going to lose my dignity so that's what I think. Dignity comes first to me, my dignity comes first.
DM: This is interesting for me ... Ok, when you are saying dignity do you think most chicks or most girls do not like guys who are working jobs that maybe are not sexy, they are you know, like hard labour and everything (but) they like the guys that are, as you called, the niggars, is that true?
HJM: Ya it is true, I support the statement fully.
DM: What statement?
HJM: I support you fully.
DM: And do you think that will move beyond when people become young adults? In other words, they move beyond their teenage years and they are getting to a world which is no longer sort of like young any more ... that, that will continue to apply? Or do you think you just live for the time now?
HJM: You see as a black young man and speaking on behalf of the black community, I think right now we as people, we live for today cause whenever we are trying to think for the future we always get disappointed, so that's how it is.
DM: You discussed the situation for yourself then that's not particularly promising lets put it in that way ... there are no opportunities and all. Besides you as an individual, who else up there do you see as responsible for this situation, if anybody?
HJM: Who is responsible for the situation?
DM: Ja if anybody, well I am not saying ...what is your thought about that?
HJM: I usually blame the black government. I usually blame the black government.
DM: Tell us why?
HJM: Because when I compare things which are happening and the things which happened back then when it was the white government, they are not the same. I would prefer the white government than the black government cause if you can check when it Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 9 was still the white government, when the white government was still involved, opportunities were there, they were there. It's only when you mean I don't want to focus on that, I don't want to focus on things that don't involve me. I am going to learn whether they say Afrikaans, I am going to learn. There are many people who are doctors, who are lawyers today, they pursued their dream back in those apartheid days, they never got involved in things that don't concern them which they would say, I don't want to learn Afrikaans, I don't want to learn in this ... but opportunities were there. They could learn, they would go and become what they want to become. Right now there are no opportunities. There are no opportunities, the opportunities are for the wealthy people.
DM: As a young person who has just joined the Youth League ... you say for opportunities ... Why do you think that's the case, how would you explain it you know, how would you explain the situation where you got rid of apartheid, got democracy, people should be happy, you can vote ... how do you explain things as you describe them?
HJM: You know once again, I would say lack of knowledge and lack of involvement. You know once a black person goes up, we can vote for a black person and say ok we want this certain person to be our future President ... he will give us promises, promise this, promise that ... immediately he goes on top he forgets where he comes from. You see he forgets where he comes from and then starts to be Mr Big Shot.
AV: Ok just in terms of African and black leaders in South Africa - do you have any heroes; they don't have to be living but who are your heroes?
HJM: You know I usually say I have two heroes, I have two heroes and one it's a politician and one is not a politician. Ok as everybody is here Mr Nelson Mandela and the other one is my father.
AV: And tell us why each one?
HJM: Ok, starting with Mr Mandela. That man he persevered a lot, he persevered a lot to be where he is today. He believed in what he believed in and nothing made him back down. He did what he thought was right, he went on and on until he found what he had always been looking for. Coming to my father, my father is my hero. Whenever I feel down he is there for me, whenever I want something he is there for me, whenever I do something bad he advises me. I have been through a lot with my father. When I started experiencing ... he showed me the way, you know this is the way. So, you know I must still describe a hero as someone who did something for me, someone I can look up to as a role model ... so I consider my father as a hero.
DM: And who would you say ... just to take that question and put into the community ... who would you say do you think most young people look up to or who do they think I'd like to be like that person - who do you think they look to, maybe not even one individual but the kind of person?
HJM: You know what I would say is that the person they look up to is not a politician but just a business person ... just this person who owns too many garages, TK.
DM: The guy who is building this house over here?
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HJM: TK ja. They look up to him, they want to be like him. Too many people want to be like him ... they would say ja, in the near future I will see myself there, I see myself driving my own cars, not a car, you see. I see myself having ...living a nice life, enjoying life, building my mum a house in a suburb place, things like that. Even me I consider that one day I wish to be like him, own my own garages.
DM: What kinds of cars does he drive?
HJM: X5's ... let me say luxury cars, luxury.
AV: You know in a lot of what you are saying, your begin saying as a black man ... as a black man do you believe that you have the responsibility to your community here and if so what would be that responsibility be?
HJM: You know as a black man I do have responsibility, I do have responsibility. My mum wakes up early in the morning and goes to catch a train at the station, so if some black man comes and robs her it means that I have responsibilities. For starters - if I could, let say if I could and would be given something, maybe I am given a certain project whereby okay, they give you this certain project, what are you going to do with this certain project to your black community. I can inherit many opportunities for the youngsters you see. Like for starter - you know, I am sure you noticed when you come in this side, there are no streets. I could maybe want some people or maybe want ... I could ask for donations maybe to make a street in our area. So then I would again hire these people, the local people to be involved in making that street. So then when I give them that it means I have been given then I give back to the community. That certain person won't come again tomorrow and rob my mom because he's got something to do. He's got something to focus on, so I do believe that I have a responsibility.
AV: And you know this week is...what do we call, this month is the 30th anniversary of Steve Biko's death - he also tried to kind of understand what it means to be black. For you, what does that mean?
HJM: You know what I am about to say , what it means to be black to me ... I've made a thorough research to see what it means for me to be black and there is nothing interesting to be black. Because when you are black it's all about you have to live to hustle, you have to stand in a line whenever you want something. Like when white people talk about technology we on the other side we talk about the detokoloshi (Zonbi). You see, witches, black people are involved in witchcraft, they are involved in crime, they are involved in those things. So to me, there is nothing interesting in being black but I am just taking advantage because I am black and they are going to blame being black for not getting opportunities, they are going to say just because I am black you see. There is nothing interesting about being black.
AV: Can I ask you a bit of a strange question. If you could be born white ...you know, if like sometimes you could say, I wish my parents were rich or something ... have you ever said hey, I wish I was white?
HJM: No, I once said I wish my parents were rich but I have never ever said I wish I was white.
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AV: And why?
HJM: I know for myself that when we sit, let's say we sit with other people, maybe my crew but not necessarily my friends, you know that sometimes we sit together and they would say maybe the other guy, maybe he's a snob, maybe he grew up going to white schools and such things. You see that he is not white but he is white inside -so we will call him coconut, haa that thing ke pari (this is stupid), that thing e lahlile (he is boring) ... words, insulting words, they would insult him. So, if he was white they will insult him more. So, I would rather prefer being black than being white.
DM: Let me just take this a little further. Don't you find it very strange though that that happens - what you have just described - like that guy comes and speaks a particular accent, so they think he has gone to an English school and he has the clothes. And yet, what you started saying is that the kinds of things that kids want oftentimes, or what the people want right now are mostly found in the suburbs which is predominantly - not all now because now it's become mixed race, Indians, Coloureds and some rich blacks now but it is still in this country, predominantly white. So, isn't that a strange combination?
HJM: It is a strange thing ... then you know usually me and my friends, we prefer things the way they are, I prefer things the way they are.
DM: I am sure you travelled in Joburg, and gone to other places ja?
HJM: Ja.
DM: Let say ... have you gone to Sandton?
HJM: Yes.
DM: What do you think when you've gone to Sandton ... that place there?
HJM: You know I am a person who likes more to want, than to diss. I would usually say -I'm talking about myself, not other people - I would usually say but eish haa that house is nxa u ya bona (that house is nice you see) , that house is nxa ek is liewe vir (that house is nice and I love it) you see, one day. Usually I would more praise the place than diss the place, than say these people, they have it at all. Now, I don't know how did they come to have it all, you see. I don't know whether he hustled until where to be where to be where he is ... so I usually I like to praise things than to diss things.
DM: You've mentioned on numerous occasions this idea of hustling to get what you need, whether it's a girlfriend or whether it's something here or whatever ... and on the other hand you are talking about how there is very few opportunities and the new government is not providing those things. How do you think as a young person - your future is ahead of you, you are looking ... What do you think is going to change the situation that you've described?
HJM: You know this thing won't end right now, won't end in the near future or in the next future. We still have to go a long way and who knows, maybe I might not be there to see whether things have been right or what. Just imagine, Mandela was arrested for how many years, 27 years, 27 years ... Mandela was arrested for 27 years before he got what he wanted - still he never got exactly what he wanted. So, it shows that even I, I want these things but I have never even yet started racing - so by changing the situation, the Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 12 situation won't change now, it won't, it won't change now. It's up to me now to hustle and hustle until I get where I want to be.
AV: But now just going back to the term hustle. Do you know that there is a meaning to the word that suggests an indifference to the law ... meaning that, going beyond the law ... for instance you know hustlers are sometimes thought of as the people robbing people on the street or hijacking people and so forth. I am just curious to understand how do you understand the act of hustling in relation to law and order?
HJM: There are many ways to hustle, of which there is a bad way, there is a good way. Sometimes you can hustle by robbing people, sometimes you can hustle by let's say, that thing I've just mentioned about not liking to be a garden boy, making garden .. after making garden, maybe going to some other house painting, maybe after painting doing a certain job - to me it's like hustling. I hustle to get the certain things you know - there are many ways to hustle. But usually when someone says hustling, the idea that you are going to get is the idea that ok it means this person is a thug, it means this person hustles, robs people and immediately you are going to do what? You are going to try to get away from him as much as possible - so that's how it is.
AV: In terms of like your friends do you know of those who have gone into what you've called the bad hustling?
HJM: There are many friends I have who are still hustlers, bad hustlers ... there are other friends that I have who are arrested. Some went to school with me, some I just met through these others, just like that.
AV: And what kinds of crime are like youngsters involved in?
HJM: You know mainly when they say this person is a hustler and he lives in a black community, there is nothing he does, what he does mostly he robs people. He robs people through their bags, that's what they do ... to put it in other words ba bamba inkuzi in zulu that what we say and that's how it is.
DM: And what about here in this area - are there any gangs, guys that do serious stuff?
HJM: Ja I can say that, I was once a part of a gang. There are gangs in this area.
DM: And do those gangs, like generally, do they specialise in particular kinds of things?
HJM: Ja they specialise...they vary.
DM: Some are jackers, some are robbers?
HJM: Ja those things.
DM Target houses?
HJM: Ja.
DM: So they are around?
HJM: Ja they are around and I used to be with them.
AV: And what about drugs, is it a big problem for the youth in this area?
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 13
HJM: You know drugs it is ... it is a big issue in this area.
AV: And what ... is it like mandrax or cocaine?
HJM: Everyone smokes pills ... I don't know their names but they are pills. They could usually take a bottle, put weed inside of it and smoke.
DM: On the drug thing ... it's seems as though in the last 5 years in particular, some of the harder drugs have come into the black communities that used to only be in the white suburbs - like heroine...you know those really hard, hard drugs. Do you know, are they around?
HJM: I have never seen that.
DM: Or is it just the usual kind of stuff?
HJM: Just the usual staff. I have never seen someone smoking heroine.
DM: Just a few more questions and then we'll be done. You previously said you don't see things changing much, that you yourself don't see them. If you were to look on the bright side , what would you see as possible in the next period, let's say in the next 10 years of your life when you are going to enter into your twenties, which is a very important part of anyone's life because it's when you decide what you are going to basically do with your life?
HJM: What I can say ... if I still don't work, if I still don't go to school and finish my matric, I'll still be here trying to hustle for each and everything, as I've said. You know I have lost hope for the future, that's why I can't think about it. I'm almost going to one year sitting down doing nothing, you see. So I've lost hope for the future ... totally, totally.
DM: And do you know any kids that you went to school with that have managed to move up and get what they want? And how did they do that?
HJM: Only those who are from rich families. Only those who are from rich families.
AV: Do you have any friends that are at university at the moment?
HJM: I only had one who came back, who never finished school because of money.
DM: How does that make you feel? The picture you are painting which is not a surprising picture ... that if you want to do anything, if you want to go anywhere you have to have money. If you have money you can do pretty much do anything you want - is that you were saying?
HJM: Anything you want. Anything you want.
DM: As someone who is clearly intelligent, you think, you've read ... you know, you are not just standing out there and not thinking about anything ... What do you think about that ... that money is the determinant - that if you have money, it doesn't matter whether you are a good person, a bad person - you can do whatever you want?
HJM: You know I have seen things take part, I have seen things happen, I have seen people with money and I've been down. I have seen people with money being broke, I've Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 14 seen people with no money being rich, you see. Even though you can have money, if you don't have that mental capacity which can make you what you want to be, if you don't know how to think you don't know how to think, even if we can give you a certain money and say take this money if you don't know how to use it , you don't know how to use it. So what matters is thinking.
DM: What did you think about ... you know in the last month for example here in the Vaal in Boiketlong and others, there was quite a lot of people in the community including young people, that were out on the streets, blockading the roads and fighting with cops. Do you think anything about that or you just say ah, it's never going to go anywhere?
HJM: You what I said , I said I se kasi, it happens. What I saw was not new. I know you could even come next year and you could still find the same thing taking place. The year after next, you can still find it taking place.
DM: So you don't think it makes much of a difference? HJM: I don't think it makes much of a difference, it doesn't.
AV: Do you think that it does though change the way government sees this area?
HJM: You know, if you noticed this area things would have been changed by 1996/97, immediately after 1994 things would have been changed. But no, it doesn't pay attention towards poor areas. They just pay attention with things, busy going outside the country, busy exploring outside the country while South African areas, communities, suffer.
DM: Last two questions. One - what are your dreams, what do you want, I know ... you still have dreams. What are your dreams?
HJM: You know I have dreams, but to cover them all, my dream is to become a businessman.
DM: What kind of a businessman?
HJM: I want to be involved in the market, I want to see myself being involved in the stock exchange market. I see myself owning certain things. I see myself having a school that is registered under my name, like for instance we have no primary school in this area - in this area children have to go to others areas for school. I just want those things but mainly, my dream is to become a businessman.
AV: Is there anything that you are afraid of ... like something that you are worried about in terms of the future?
HJM: Ja there are things that I am worried about in terms of the future. For starters, there is this thing - my parents did provide for me, so what scares me in the future is that, are they still going to be there, for me to pay them back, that's the main thing that scares me.
DM: The very last question. Is there anything that you want to say? I am not asking a question but anything ... whatever that you'd like to say, feel free.
HJM: What I want to say is more of an advice ... like we black people we take ourselves down, we oppress ourselves, we do not put our mind into what we want to do. We always blame the colour of our skin and say just because we are black ... not doing anything. Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 15 We expect jobs to come to us but we don't go and look for jobs. We expect opportunities to come to us yet we don't go and seek for opportunities. So, even the black government on the other side is still not doing nothing for us. I understand why people don't go and look for jobs, I understand why they just sit and never think about opportunities and never consider their dreams - it is because they know that whenever we go somewhere without money, without wealth, I am nothing, just an ordinary poor person. So what I wanted to say is just that, if you put your mind into something, definitely you are going to make it.
DM: Thanks Happy, thanks for talking with us.
HJM: Thank you.
MINUTES 59:58 Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 16
Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-09-08
Location of interview: Sebokeng, Gauteng
Language of interview: English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Happy Jabulani Malindi
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_SEB_MalindiHappyJabulani_20070908 INTERVIEW WITH HAPPY JABULANI MALINDI.
Dale McKinley (DM): Ok ... if you can just tell us your full name?
Happy Jabulani Malindi (HJM): My full name is Happy Jabulani Malindi.
DM: Ok Happy and how old are you?
HJM: I am 18 years old.
DM: 18?
HJM: Yes.
DM: And were you born in this community?
HJM: I was born in this community but I don't know which house.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): In this house?
HJM: Basically I don't know which house.
DM: How long have you been living in this particular house now?
HJM: Almost all my life.
DM: Almost all your life?
HJM: Yes.
DM: So you in some ways ... as an 18 yr old ... you are someone who is a post-1994 kid aren't you?
HJM: Yes.
DM: What memories do you remember as a child here?
HJM: Yoo! I have got a lot of memories.
DM: Tell us about them.
HJM: Life was never that good like in1994 ... if I can show you or give you examples. We used to run away from cops before 1994, we used to run away from cops, I think it was in 1991 or 1992 somewhere there ... we used to run away from cops because there Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 1 were a lot of politicians involved in this community, they used to sing, offend cops. Then after 1994 things began to change whereby now.... there was this ... this dangerous area which was called Zone 7, that area was very dangerous. So, whenever we could go and live in Zone 7 we come across many things like people trying to offend us, people trying to beat us, trying to even insult us. There were many things ... but since from 1994 things changed.
DM: When you were talking about early 1994, you were a very small child then?
HJM: I was a very small child.
DM: You could see what was going on?
HJM: I could see.
DM: Now when you are saying people were insulting you, what kinds of people were those? I mean were they just tsotsis, political people ... or what?
HJM: Mainly they were politicians. Like if your father was involved in...was an ANC member, so maybe they were IFP, maybe the other one was IFP. The main dangerous one was the IFP, the Inkatha Freedom one. If they could hear that your father was an ANC member then you have a lot to pay for, because they would come and insult you maybe physically. They could turn physically aggressive towards you. So that was the way it was.
AV: And why was Zone 7 more of a problem than anywhere else?
HJM: I could say zone 7 was more of a problem than any other areas because mainly the politicians of this area, of this community mostly originated from Zone 7. They lived in zone 7, so they would come and try to recruit more people from this other side, so that's why it was the most dangerous one. I have seen a lot of it because I went to school in zone 7.
AV: Do you remember the elections in 1994?
HJM: Yes, I do remember the elections.
AV: What do you remember about it, from your child's perspective?
HJM: You know from my child's perspectives, what I can say is that I was just happy because people were happy. I just loved each and every moment because people loved each and every moment. For instance when I see my father happy, I also turn happy. So they usually say jaa...; In Zulu they say ya manje ngi ya phila manje, yonke in to eya lonka, kosho khuti sizo bheka I life e nxolo manje (which means everything its good, its changing and you are going to experience a better future). So what I can say is that ... the memory I recall is when this Winnie Mandela. The memory that I have and the memory that I love mostly was the memory whereby Mr Mandela was walking towards the stage and so Winnie Mandela took his hand and raised it up and the crowd cheered ... that was the moment that I really enjoyed and loved.
DM: You were watching this on television?
HJM: Yes, I watched it on television.
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 2
DM: And that made you feel good when you saw Mandela?
HJM: Yes.
DM: So in terms of your own house, growing up here with your family, how were things?
HJM: Things weren't really not good growing up here ... as you can see I came across a lot of things even though life started to show up right now ... but then, growing up here in this house, things were never that good.
DM: Can you give us examples of what you mean?
HJM: Like my mother was unemployed by that time, my father was working and he was the bread winner. So he even lost his job. So you see ... like when I go out with my friends sometimes I don't have money. When you come home sometimes they would tell you that today ... we are eating bread, there is no money for maize meal, If you watch sometimes there is no TV, you have no stoves; you cook with prima stove, the little thing which has too much smoke. You see, just bad memories, bad memories.
AV: And how did you make sense of that as a child? How did you understand what was going on?
HJM: You know, having parents who love you sometimes gives you an understanding. My parents told me that, look at this, we are black people from the black community we do suffer and we don't know how ... so, for you to have a nice life is up to you to make it up and go to school and get educated because we can't give you wealth but we can give you education. So, what I can say is that my parents they said education is the key to success. Don't stress about things which you never inherit, which you never even made. So that's how I came to live with the situation.
DM: And did you take that message to heart when you started going to school?
HJM: No, I never listened to my parents. I never paid attention to my parents. I never took the message to my heart, because what I thought and what I saw was that I go to school and then let's say I have to go to tertiary education ... who is going to pay at tertiary because my mum...right now I can say my mum she is a bread winner, my father doesn't work. So I asked myself when I go to tertiary who is going to pay for me? Who is going to do this and this for me? I asked myself too many questions of which whereby I started skipping school. I never went to school until I came to the sense again that no man, my father said this and that, I went again to school, but here I am now, no school and I am not working. I am just an ordinary guy.
DM: Ok we are going to take you back a little bit when you started in primary school. What was school like in the mid-1990s? Tell us a little bit about how school was like at that time for you as a 7/8 year old?
AV: Remember your first day? Tell us about it?
HJM: Yes, I remember my first day, I was even beaten in my first day you know. We arrived late so the principal ...that whereby corporal punishment was still there ... so they just punished me - it was in my first day. But in those days school for me was still Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 3 the same ...still the same as I went through school in secondary life and so and so. Because you could see that in class we could even share maybe six people to share one book from primary, six people could share one book, there were no chairs ... in iSizulu we used to say msihlalisane (let's sit together), things like that. So nothing major, it's just that back in those days we knew that when we go to school you go to school to learn.
DM: And you took it seriously?
HJM: We took it seriously.
DM: You went to a local school primary school here, right?
HJM: Yes, I went to a local school.
DM: Tell us a little about the other kids that were there, what kind of families, kids ... at school?
HJM: You see it hurts a lot to say that you have a lunch box to eat and the other child doesn't have a lunch box to eat. It even hurts to see that you have shoes to go to school but the other child doesn't have the shoes to go school. Those were the main problems that we came across, seeing people living with, poverty, starvation, they suffered a lot. Ok sometimes I could cry and say this and that, but what I can say - my parents tried harder to give me that thing that they had. But other kids they never had the chance ... they could to school in the morning with an empty stomach and leave school in the afternoon still with an empty stomach, with no shoes, with no uniform, with no covered books. With no bags, just a plastic. So those were the things that we came across.
DM: And were those kids that didn't have those kinds of things treated differently than the other kids?
HJM: What I could say is they didn't have those things. They did not have those things because you could see there was this thing ... we have meetings at school, they could say at a certain date there is a meeting you should come with your parents, then you could see through them that these parents don't have a good life. They don't have a good life at all.
DM: Were those kids who didn't have those kinds of things ... were they treated differently from the other kids?
HJM: They didn't have those things. You see, we could have meetings at school ... you should tell your parents that on that date there is a meeting and you should come with your parents. The you could see that no man, these parents At school we treated the same.
AV: Can I ask you a question. You know, I was speaking to some guys from Orange Farm, also young, and they were talking about cheese boys. Do you use the term?
HJM: Ja, we do use the term, we do use the term. There is this thing maybe, I have a phone, my phone is 1100 and the other one has a phone maybe has a IG phone or has Samsung D600 phone, he wears Cavellas, what can I say, Soviets, the top things that the other kids could never even reach. Then he could walk on the street and brag about it and says ja I am the main man, trying to impress ... I am going to say this but I think the cheese boys impress chicks. By so being cheese boys they are trying to impress chicks. So then we - I am going to use the term but I know the term is not good - we call ourselves niggars. We niggars come across these cheese boys and say in Zulu, we say Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 4 kuyasekezwa, we hustle for each and everything that we want and we are going to get it. But these cheese boys they don't, they don't work hard, they don't hustle for each and everything they have. But we niggars and pantsulas we hustle each and every time to get what we want. That's how it is ... cheese boys.
DM: So I mean just using that ... however you call yourself ...is it mostly along like people you consider to be in a different class? You know, here's these that are here, other in the middle and maybe those that are up here?
HJM: Ja it is mostly like that. Cheese boys are on top off the list.
DM: When you say on top of the list ... they are the ones that accepted by everybody, are very popular, no?
HJM: They are very popular but they are not accepted by everyone. That's how it is, they are very popular and they are even very, very much hated by people.
DM: By those who are down, who you say struggle for everything?
HJM: Yes, by those who hustle for each and every thing.
AV: Just a question. I mean ... and you can tell me if you don't want to answer me ... the term niggar, why do you refer to yourself as niggar?
HJM: You know what I can tell you about the term niggar ... ok it started as a slavery name, we all grew up knowing that niggar is a term for slavery people, it was used for slavery people. But then as we grew up we realised that there are no longer such things. So in this future right now, I can say niggar is used as a stylish word.
AV: But it's an American word?
HJM: Yes, it's an American word.
AV: And if for instance one of your friends were to start calling another one of your friends' kaffir, how would you respond to that?
HJM: What I can say ... you know lack of knowledge and lack of understanding is the one that kills our black people. Because he knows that the word kaffir was used to diss someone. The word kaffir was used to diss someone ... therefore, he's going to get angry or turn physically aggressive towards that person. Right now the word niggar, if they call you a niggar it shows you that you are a top dog you see, you know each and every thing concerning life. So if you call him a niggar he is going to accept, all because of a lack of knowledge, so that's how it is.
DM: When was it ... when do you remember when you were growing up, when it first became important for you about clothes, because very clearly for the younger generation clothes have always been important ... as you say, you identify people by what they are wearing. You know, if he's wearing Soviet, Fila shoes and you say wow ... when can you remember that that became important for you?
HJM: As soon as I started falling in love, that's when I realised that clothes do exist .
DM: As soon as you realised it was important to impress girls?
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 5
HJM: Yes.
DM: Ok that's understandable. What age were you at that time?
HJM: I can't remember exactly, maybe I was doing grade 4 or 3, maybe I was about 9, 10 years.
AV: I just want also to ask you about ... in terms of this area and young men ... like I know when I was growing up and so forth, there was a lot of the kinds of kids that were considered cool were those who were fast guns, quick money and easy women?
HJM: Ja that's what I've just said but in another sense. You see, when you're a niggar you are entitled to a gun, you are entitled to women, you are entitled to cars you see. So then in this area mostly we are like that, that's were by chicks notice you, that's whereby chicks notice that this man is a real born hustler. He is very cool but when you come as acheese boy we don't say its cool, we don't say fancy staff, we just say haa ke pari (this is a coward) - so then you are considered un-cool.
DM: How do you relate...I mean obviously you are in a family where your father has been involved in quite a lot of activities ... political, community etc. ... when you talked about the 1980s and 90s and all sort of things were happening ... when you look at that generation - it was cool in the 1980s if you were a comrade and if you were hard and if you were fighting, now its changed. 1994 comes, no more apartheid and the struggle is over and the shifts ... it's not about politics, politics doesn't matter anymore, it doesn't mean anything. What do you think about that ... I mean coming from the background that you come from?
HJM: You know when I sit and listened to my father talking about his growing up ages, when he grew up back then, growing up as a comrade, I prefer those things. Because he said to me if you are a man you could even get arrested if you are not working. Right now we just bounce around the street, we just bounce, stand in the corners, smoke and look at chicks. They don't care whether you work or don't work. So, basically what I am trying to say, I could say life was better back then than right now.
AV: Can I ask you ... in this area are there any youngsters that you know that you can say, hey that one is political and so forth ...?
HJM: Sure, there are many youngsters who are political. There many youngsters who are very political. For instance, I have this friend, he is very political, he could tell about his trip from way back then until right now - you see he is very political. When he talks he is political. Ja, there are very active politicians.
DM: So, like when you were in high school here, was there a local COSAS branch that was active in this area?
HJM: No.
DM: No, nothing like that?
HJM: No nothing like that.
DM: ANC Youth League?
HJM: ANC Youth League was there and I was an ANC Youth League member.
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 6
DM: So you did join the League?
HJM: Yes I did join the League.
DM: When did you join the league, many years ago?
HJM: No, not many years ago. Maybe three months back.
DM: Very recently?
HJM: Yes recently.
DM: Tell us why you made that decision?
HJM: You know when one just sits at home doing nothing, opportunities can't come. So when you involve yourself in many things that's whereby you are going to realise that opportunities like this like that, are there. Right now you have to go and find opportunities. Opportunities don't come as opportunities so you have to go and hunt for them.
DM: And what kinds of opportunities would you imagine would come from being a member of the Youth League, from being involved in the Youth League?
HJM: For instance, we sometimes we deal with orphanages, we try to boost orphanages, and sometimes we deal with crime. There are those who are been selected to patrol - things like that you see. There are opportunities mainly if you have been chosen to patrol because you are going to be involved with cops and once being involved with cops it is up to you whether to push yourself to become a cop or what - it is up to you. It is in your capacity whether you know how to think or not.
AV: And ...like Love Life do they have a centre here?
HJM: Ja they have a centre here.
AV: Are there lots of young men and women that are members of Love Life?
HJM: Ja there are many members.
AV: Have you yourself ever been part of Love Life programme?
HJM: You know I once tried to be a Love Life member but I pulled out.
AV: Why?
HJM: Things which take place there. No, no.
AV: Tell us about them?
HJM: You know truly speaking, truly speaking. I know this is going to hurt but I might as well come out with it. We know that HIV/AIDS is dangerous, HIV/AIDS kills, HIV/AIDS you can get it by this way, by that way, to prevent HIV/AIDS you should do this, you should do that. Those questions since they discovered that HIV/AIDS has been there, HIV/AIDS has never stopped being a topic. It is always the centre of attention. You come here it is HIV/AIDS, you go there it is HIV/AIDS. So truly speaking I have had it Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 7 with HIV/AIDS, they always say HIV/AIDS. There are more important issues we could deal with than just HIV/AIDS.
DM: Do you think most of your peers, in other words your friends and everything, take it seriously in terms of their own sexual life?
HJM: Ja they do take it seriously, they do take it seriously, they do take it seriously, they do.
DM: I know this is a very touchy question and you don't have to answer if you don't want - do you know many people and any other friends that are HIV-positive and also that died because of HIV/AIDS?
HJM: I had a brother who died of HIV.
AV: I am trying to understand your kind of position around AIDS. Is it partly because you don't want to be reminded of the possibility of death?
HJM: To me that's the main issue. Once you get to know someone who is HIV positive, who died because of the certain death, it is kind of hard to cope while people bring up about the same death that took the person that you appreciated and which you loved, you see. That's the main issue I am trying to deal with right now. So, that's the main thing that made me pull out.
DM: Ok you mentioned earlier that most of the time since you have left high school, there is nothing much to do other than just hanging around the street corners talking to girls and everything else ... When you said you have to search for opportunities - what other opportunities are there in this area for young men like yourself?
HJM: What I can say, in this area there are no opportunities. There are no opportunities. There are no opportunities. You could even tour around the area you could see that you will come across many people, many they just standing around the corners smoking, maybe gambling you see. There are no opportunities. We even appreciate Mr Bafana over here. When an opportunity occurred Mr Bafana will call and say bafethu its like this, its like that -let's go to maybe where we are having a march or something, then they could ... those youngsters he took they could even come with some little bit of money that he gave them you see, that's how, we look up to our elders for opportunities. Opportunities are rare in this area.
AV: Just a question ... amongst your friends, how many of them that are like around your age are working right now?
HJM: Amongst my friends ... usually we are four.
AV: Your crew, you are four?
HJM: Yes four and only one was working, but right now he is not working and the other two are at school
AV: And what work was he doing?
HJM: You know for me it was just like to take him out of bad things ... he worked at the garage.
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 8
AV: As an attendant?
HJM: Ja as an attendant.
AV: Now this is the other thing you know I spoke to this young lady who is speaking about work and so forth ... I asked her, are there certain things you won't do and she said no she will never go work as a domestic worker. For yourself, are there certain things that you would not do?
HJM: Truly speaking I won't tolerate being a garden boy, I won't tolerate going out painting houses in suburb places, those kinds of work I won't do.
AV: Why?
HJM: You know as a person you have your own pride, you have your own sense to think of...sometimes I think ok, what if I go and work as a domestic worker and usually I am a person who loves chicks. What if I am in the garden and at this house then appeared a fine, good looking chick and I am busy making the garden over. No, I am going to lose my dignity so that's what I think. Dignity comes first to me, my dignity comes first.
DM: This is interesting for me ... Ok, when you are saying dignity do you think most chicks or most girls do not like guys who are working jobs that maybe are not sexy, they are you know, like hard labour and everything (but) they like the guys that are, as you called, the niggars, is that true?
HJM: Ya it is true, I support the statement fully.
DM: What statement?
HJM: I support you fully.
DM: And do you think that will move beyond when people become young adults? In other words, they move beyond their teenage years and they are getting to a world which is no longer sort of like young any more ... that, that will continue to apply? Or do you think you just live for the time now?
HJM: You see as a black young man and speaking on behalf of the black community, I think right now we as people, we live for today cause whenever we are trying to think for the future we always get disappointed, so that's how it is.
DM: You discussed the situation for yourself then that's not particularly promising lets put it in that way ... there are no opportunities and all. Besides you as an individual, who else up there do you see as responsible for this situation, if anybody?
HJM: Who is responsible for the situation?
DM: Ja if anybody, well I am not saying ...what is your thought about that?
HJM: I usually blame the black government. I usually blame the black government.
DM: Tell us why?
HJM: Because when I compare things which are happening and the things which happened back then when it was the white government, they are not the same. I would prefer the white government than the black government cause if you can check when it Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 9 was still the white government, when the white government was still involved, opportunities were there, they were there. It's only when you mean I don't want to focus on that, I don't want to focus on things that don't involve me. I am going to learn whether they say Afrikaans, I am going to learn. There are many people who are doctors, who are lawyers today, they pursued their dream back in those apartheid days, they never got involved in things that don't concern them which they would say, I don't want to learn Afrikaans, I don't want to learn in this ... but opportunities were there. They could learn, they would go and become what they want to become. Right now there are no opportunities. There are no opportunities, the opportunities are for the wealthy people.
DM: As a young person who has just joined the Youth League ... you say for opportunities ... Why do you think that's the case, how would you explain it you know, how would you explain the situation where you got rid of apartheid, got democracy, people should be happy, you can vote ... how do you explain things as you describe them?
HJM: You know once again, I would say lack of knowledge and lack of involvement. You know once a black person goes up, we can vote for a black person and say ok we want this certain person to be our future President ... he will give us promises, promise this, promise that ... immediately he goes on top he forgets where he comes from. You see he forgets where he comes from and then starts to be Mr Big Shot.
AV: Ok just in terms of African and black leaders in South Africa - do you have any heroes; they don't have to be living but who are your heroes?
HJM: You know I usually say I have two heroes, I have two heroes and one it's a politician and one is not a politician. Ok as everybody is here Mr Nelson Mandela and the other one is my father.
AV: And tell us why each one?
HJM: Ok, starting with Mr Mandela. That man he persevered a lot, he persevered a lot to be where he is today. He believed in what he believed in and nothing made him back down. He did what he thought was right, he went on and on until he found what he had always been looking for. Coming to my father, my father is my hero. Whenever I feel down he is there for me, whenever I want something he is there for me, whenever I do something bad he advises me. I have been through a lot with my father. When I started experiencing ... he showed me the way, you know this is the way. So, you know I must still describe a hero as someone who did something for me, someone I can look up to as a role model ... so I consider my father as a hero.
DM: And who would you say ... just to take that question and put into the community ... who would you say do you think most young people look up to or who do they think I'd like to be like that person - who do you think they look to, maybe not even one individual but the kind of person?
HJM: You know what I would say is that the person they look up to is not a politician but just a business person ... just this person who owns too many garages, TK.
DM: The guy who is building this house over here?
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 10
HJM: TK ja. They look up to him, they want to be like him. Too many people want to be like him ... they would say ja, in the near future I will see myself there, I see myself driving my own cars, not a car, you see. I see myself having ...living a nice life, enjoying life, building my mum a house in a suburb place, things like that. Even me I consider that one day I wish to be like him, own my own garages.
DM: What kinds of cars does he drive?
HJM: X5's ... let me say luxury cars, luxury.
AV: You know in a lot of what you are saying, your begin saying as a black man ... as a black man do you believe that you have the responsibility to your community here and if so what would be that responsibility be?
HJM: You know as a black man I do have responsibility, I do have responsibility. My mum wakes up early in the morning and goes to catch a train at the station, so if some black man comes and robs her it means that I have responsibilities. For starters - if I could, let say if I could and would be given something, maybe I am given a certain project whereby okay, they give you this certain project, what are you going to do with this certain project to your black community. I can inherit many opportunities for the youngsters you see. Like for starter - you know, I am sure you noticed when you come in this side, there are no streets. I could maybe want some people or maybe want ... I could ask for donations maybe to make a street in our area. So then I would again hire these people, the local people to be involved in making that street. So then when I give them that it means I have been given then I give back to the community. That certain person won't come again tomorrow and rob my mom because he's got something to do. He's got something to focus on, so I do believe that I have a responsibility.
AV: And you know this week is...what do we call, this month is the 30th anniversary of Steve Biko's death - he also tried to kind of understand what it means to be black. For you, what does that mean?
HJM: You know what I am about to say , what it means to be black to me ... I've made a thorough research to see what it means for me to be black and there is nothing interesting to be black. Because when you are black it's all about you have to live to hustle, you have to stand in a line whenever you want something. Like when white people talk about technology we on the other side we talk about the detokoloshi (Zonbi). You see, witches, black people are involved in witchcraft, they are involved in crime, they are involved in those things. So to me, there is nothing interesting in being black but I am just taking advantage because I am black and they are going to blame being black for not getting opportunities, they are going to say just because I am black you see. There is nothing interesting about being black.
AV: Can I ask you a bit of a strange question. If you could be born white ...you know, if like sometimes you could say, I wish my parents were rich or something ... have you ever said hey, I wish I was white?
HJM: No, I once said I wish my parents were rich but I have never ever said I wish I was white.
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 11
AV: And why?
HJM: I know for myself that when we sit, let's say we sit with other people, maybe my crew but not necessarily my friends, you know that sometimes we sit together and they would say maybe the other guy, maybe he's a snob, maybe he grew up going to white schools and such things. You see that he is not white but he is white inside -so we will call him coconut, haa that thing ke pari (this is stupid), that thing e lahlile (he is boring) ... words, insulting words, they would insult him. So, if he was white they will insult him more. So, I would rather prefer being black than being white.
DM: Let me just take this a little further. Don't you find it very strange though that that happens - what you have just described - like that guy comes and speaks a particular accent, so they think he has gone to an English school and he has the clothes. And yet, what you started saying is that the kinds of things that kids want oftentimes, or what the people want right now are mostly found in the suburbs which is predominantly - not all now because now it's become mixed race, Indians, Coloureds and some rich blacks now but it is still in this country, predominantly white. So, isn't that a strange combination?
HJM: It is a strange thing ... then you know usually me and my friends, we prefer things the way they are, I prefer things the way they are.
DM: I am sure you travelled in Joburg, and gone to other places ja?
HJM: Ja.
DM: Let say ... have you gone to Sandton?
HJM: Yes.
DM: What do you think when you've gone to Sandton ... that place there?
HJM: You know I am a person who likes more to want, than to diss. I would usually say -I'm talking about myself, not other people - I would usually say but eish haa that house is nxa u ya bona (that house is nice you see) , that house is nxa ek is liewe vir (that house is nice and I love it) you see, one day. Usually I would more praise the place than diss the place, than say these people, they have it at all. Now, I don't know how did they come to have it all, you see. I don't know whether he hustled until where to be where to be where he is ... so I usually I like to praise things than to diss things.
DM: You've mentioned on numerous occasions this idea of hustling to get what you need, whether it's a girlfriend or whether it's something here or whatever ... and on the other hand you are talking about how there is very few opportunities and the new government is not providing those things. How do you think as a young person - your future is ahead of you, you are looking ... What do you think is going to change the situation that you've described?
HJM: You know this thing won't end right now, won't end in the near future or in the next future. We still have to go a long way and who knows, maybe I might not be there to see whether things have been right or what. Just imagine, Mandela was arrested for how many years, 27 years, 27 years ... Mandela was arrested for 27 years before he got what he wanted - still he never got exactly what he wanted. So, it shows that even I, I want these things but I have never even yet started racing - so by changing the situation, the Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 12 situation won't change now, it won't, it won't change now. It's up to me now to hustle and hustle until I get where I want to be.
AV: But now just going back to the term hustle. Do you know that there is a meaning to the word that suggests an indifference to the law ... meaning that, going beyond the law ... for instance you know hustlers are sometimes thought of as the people robbing people on the street or hijacking people and so forth. I am just curious to understand how do you understand the act of hustling in relation to law and order?
HJM: There are many ways to hustle, of which there is a bad way, there is a good way. Sometimes you can hustle by robbing people, sometimes you can hustle by let's say, that thing I've just mentioned about not liking to be a garden boy, making garden .. after making garden, maybe going to some other house painting, maybe after painting doing a certain job - to me it's like hustling. I hustle to get the certain things you know - there are many ways to hustle. But usually when someone says hustling, the idea that you are going to get is the idea that ok it means this person is a thug, it means this person hustles, robs people and immediately you are going to do what? You are going to try to get away from him as much as possible - so that's how it is.
AV: In terms of like your friends do you know of those who have gone into what you've called the bad hustling?
HJM: There are many friends I have who are still hustlers, bad hustlers ... there are other friends that I have who are arrested. Some went to school with me, some I just met through these others, just like that.
AV: And what kinds of crime are like youngsters involved in?
HJM: You know mainly when they say this person is a hustler and he lives in a black community, there is nothing he does, what he does mostly he robs people. He robs people through their bags, that's what they do ... to put it in other words ba bamba inkuzi in zulu that what we say and that's how it is.
DM: And what about here in this area - are there any gangs, guys that do serious stuff?
HJM: Ja I can say that, I was once a part of a gang. There are gangs in this area.
DM: And do those gangs, like generally, do they specialise in particular kinds of things?
HJM: Ja they specialise...they vary.
DM: Some are jackers, some are robbers?
HJM: Ja those things.
DM Target houses?
HJM: Ja.
DM: So they are around?
HJM: Ja they are around and I used to be with them.
AV: And what about drugs, is it a big problem for the youth in this area?
Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 13
HJM: You know drugs it is ... it is a big issue in this area.
AV: And what ... is it like mandrax or cocaine?
HJM: Everyone smokes pills ... I don't know their names but they are pills. They could usually take a bottle, put weed inside of it and smoke.
DM: On the drug thing ... it's seems as though in the last 5 years in particular, some of the harder drugs have come into the black communities that used to only be in the white suburbs - like heroine...you know those really hard, hard drugs. Do you know, are they around?
HJM: I have never seen that.
DM: Or is it just the usual kind of stuff?
HJM: Just the usual staff. I have never seen someone smoking heroine.
DM: Just a few more questions and then we'll be done. You previously said you don't see things changing much, that you yourself don't see them. If you were to look on the bright side , what would you see as possible in the next period, let's say in the next 10 years of your life when you are going to enter into your twenties, which is a very important part of anyone's life because it's when you decide what you are going to basically do with your life?
HJM: What I can say ... if I still don't work, if I still don't go to school and finish my matric, I'll still be here trying to hustle for each and everything, as I've said. You know I have lost hope for the future, that's why I can't think about it. I'm almost going to one year sitting down doing nothing, you see. So I've lost hope for the future ... totally, totally.
DM: And do you know any kids that you went to school with that have managed to move up and get what they want? And how did they do that?
HJM: Only those who are from rich families. Only those who are from rich families.
AV: Do you have any friends that are at university at the moment?
HJM: I only had one who came back, who never finished school because of money.
DM: How does that make you feel? The picture you are painting which is not a surprising picture ... that if you want to do anything, if you want to go anywhere you have to have money. If you have money you can do pretty much do anything you want - is that you were saying?
HJM: Anything you want. Anything you want.
DM: As someone who is clearly intelligent, you think, you've read ... you know, you are not just standing out there and not thinking about anything ... What do you think about that ... that money is the determinant - that if you have money, it doesn't matter whether you are a good person, a bad person - you can do whatever you want?
HJM: You know I have seen things take part, I have seen things happen, I have seen people with money and I've been down. I have seen people with money being broke, I've Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 14 seen people with no money being rich, you see. Even though you can have money, if you don't have that mental capacity which can make you what you want to be, if you don't know how to think you don't know how to think, even if we can give you a certain money and say take this money if you don't know how to use it , you don't know how to use it. So what matters is thinking.
DM: What did you think about ... you know in the last month for example here in the Vaal in Boiketlong and others, there was quite a lot of people in the community including young people, that were out on the streets, blockading the roads and fighting with cops. Do you think anything about that or you just say ah, it's never going to go anywhere?
HJM: You what I said , I said I se kasi, it happens. What I saw was not new. I know you could even come next year and you could still find the same thing taking place. The year after next, you can still find it taking place.
DM: So you don't think it makes much of a difference? HJM: I don't think it makes much of a difference, it doesn't.
AV: Do you think that it does though change the way government sees this area?
HJM: You know, if you noticed this area things would have been changed by 1996/97, immediately after 1994 things would have been changed. But no, it doesn't pay attention towards poor areas. They just pay attention with things, busy going outside the country, busy exploring outside the country while South African areas, communities, suffer.
DM: Last two questions. One - what are your dreams, what do you want, I know ... you still have dreams. What are your dreams?
HJM: You know I have dreams, but to cover them all, my dream is to become a businessman.
DM: What kind of a businessman?
HJM: I want to be involved in the market, I want to see myself being involved in the stock exchange market. I see myself owning certain things. I see myself having a school that is registered under my name, like for instance we have no primary school in this area - in this area children have to go to others areas for school. I just want those things but mainly, my dream is to become a businessman.
AV: Is there anything that you are afraid of ... like something that you are worried about in terms of the future?
HJM: Ja there are things that I am worried about in terms of the future. For starters, there is this thing - my parents did provide for me, so what scares me in the future is that, are they still going to be there, for me to pay them back, that's the main thing that scares me.
DM: The very last question. Is there anything that you want to say? I am not asking a question but anything ... whatever that you'd like to say, feel free.
HJM: What I want to say is more of an advice ... like we black people we take ourselves down, we oppress ourselves, we do not put our mind into what we want to do. We always blame the colour of our skin and say just because we are black ... not doing anything. Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 15 We expect jobs to come to us but we don't go and look for jobs. We expect opportunities to come to us yet we don't go and seek for opportunities. So, even the black government on the other side is still not doing nothing for us. I understand why people don't go and look for jobs, I understand why they just sit and never think about opportunities and never consider their dreams - it is because they know that whenever we go somewhere without money, without wealth, I am nothing, just an ordinary poor person. So what I wanted to say is just that, if you put your mind into something, definitely you are going to make it.
DM: Thanks Happy, thanks for talking with us.
HJM: Thank you.
MINUTES 59:58 Happy Jabulani Malindi: 2007-09-08: 16
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SAHA
Related Objects
Happy Malindi, an unemployed youth from Sebokeng, during an oral history interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
Courtesy of SAHA
Creator: Malindi, Happy
McKinley, Dale
Veriava, Ahmed
McKinley, Dale
Veriava, Ahmed
Contributing Institutions: SAHA; MATRIX: The Center for Humane Arts, Letters and Social Sciences Online at Michigan State University
Contributor: Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Biography: Eighteen years old at the time of the interview, Happy Jabulani Malindi was born and has lived in Sebokeng his entire life. Happy has been in and out of school and is presently out of school and unemployed. Both of his parents are presently unemployed, his father having been retrenched from SAMANCOR in 2001 after working there for over twenty years. Happy has been a member of a ‘township’ gang and spends most of is time hanging out with other youth in the streets and at their homes. He lives with his parents and sister in their small, private house.
Description: This interview with unemployed youth Happy Jabulani Malindi was conducted by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava in Sebokeng in 2007 as part of the South African History Archive's Alternative History Project, titled 'Forgotten Voices in the Present'.
Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Sebokeng, Gauteng, Republic of South Africa
Format: Audio/mp3
Language: English
Rights Management: For educational use only.
Digitizer: SAHA
Source: SAHA collection AL3280
