Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2008-04-02
Location of interview: Rammolutsi, Free State
Language of interview: South Tswana/English
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane
Name of translator: Bramage Sekete
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_RAM_NtsaneMmamodikeLydia_20080402 SECOND INTERVIEW WITH MMAMODIKE LYDIA NTSANE

Dale McKinley (DM): Okay. This is the second follow up interview with Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane ... we have previously talked to her and we are coming back to talk some more about some of the issues that she raised in the first interview. Thank you once more for making your self available for us, we are very much appreciate that. Okay - during the first interview when we are looking through this, the one thing that we wanted to know a little bit more about ... is what did you do when you were a child growing up on the farm? Just tell us a little bit about what you did as a child and some of the things you remember ... good things, bad things ... as a kid growing up there?

Mmamodike Ntsane (MN): I was going to school when I was 7 years old. I began to start to go to primary school there on the farm. Then after that I went to Grade 1 until Grade 6. When I made Std 5, I went to another farm. It was the long kilometres per foot to go there.

DM: How far did you have to walk?

MN: It was plus/minus 2 kilometres.

DM: So that was from Grade 5 onwards?

MN: No, only Grade 5. In our farm I have done Grade 1 until Grade 6 and the Grade 7, I have done it in the next farm. Grade 8, I have done it here.

DM: So you came to Rammolutsi for grade 8?

MN: After grade 12 in Rammolutsi ... usually at the farm you walk in the field when you are young we used to go to school.

DM: And that was from grade 7 upwards?

MN: No, only grade 7, I did grade 8 to grade 12 here in Rammolutsi.

DM: You told us a little bit about life in the farm, I mean as a kid what was it like going to the farm school? What kinds of things did you do as a child, when you were 6,7, 8 years old? What do you remember?

MN: We were just playing kids games.

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 1

DM: What were your favourite games? What kinds of games did you play there because there is a lot of space, unlike growing up in the town/city?

MN: Skipping rope, I liked to play it a lot.

Ahmed Veriava (AV): And if you think about your childhood now looking back, is there anything that you would change about it?

MN: No. At the farm life was very good. I enjoyed it. It's just that there was no electricity, but our father was right he had the cattle ... there was nothing that we had suffered a lot.

DM: You mentioned to us previously that the farmer used to give the family food, mealie meal ... Was that enough to take care of every body?

MN: Yes.

DM: Did the family grow its own vegetables and maybe had meat from cows ... ?

MN: My father was having his own cattle and chickens and pigs.

DM: Your father was allowed to keep animals there on the farm?

MN: Yes.

DM: You mentioned also that at some point later, when the farm changed ownership, that, that stopped. How did that affect your family when that started happening?

MN: It was very bad. It was when we came back here ... it was very bad.

DM: Because in rural areas when you have livestock it is a sign of wealth and standing in the community ... When that began to happen was it something that affected your father quite a lot?

MN: Yes, it affected him quite a lot.

AV: How?

MN: Because they cut the amount of the cattle and the amount of the salary ... they had given us 80 kg mealie meal but they also cut out the mealie meal and they (farm workers) paid it out of their own pocket.

AV: You mean your parents had to start buying mealie meal?

MN: Yes.

AV: And in terms of livestock?

MN: They limit the livestock.

DM: Before that how many cattle did your father have?

MN: They were so many ...

D.M: When they said that ... to limit the number of cattle ... what happened to the other animals

MN: He sold them.

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 2

AV: Dale said earlier that livestock was a form of wealth. Did that change? Like now if someone has many cows does that mean he is wealthy?

MN: I don't understand.

DM: Okay ... as life has changed ... if you think about growing up on the farm in those days if your father had, let's say, 50 cattle then he would be considered to be quite wealthy. I think the question is - as time has gone on, on the farm and in this community, are cattle and animals still seen as a form of wealth or has it changed quite drastically?

MN: It has changed ... but these days they are too expensive

DM: What about the land issue .. places to keep the cattle. We see some people keeping animals here?

MN: They also pay for the land where you keep your cattle ... you pay them

DM: Are there many people that you know here in Rammolutsi that still keep animals?

MN: Yes ... my brother.

DM: And he keeps them somewhere ...he rents a piece of land?

MN: Yes, he rents a piece of land.

DM: So it's still quite a part of peoples lives ... keeping animals?

MN: Yes.

DM: Do you yourself have any?

MN: It's my mother. My mother has ... I don't remember but about 4 or 5 cattle from the ones that my father had. They are there at the farms ... to our relatives that stay there. One of our relatives keeps them for my mother.

DM: So it is sort of like an investment when you need it?

MN: Yes ... when you sell one you share with that person the amount of money.

DM: When we go back to your childhood, what are your favourite memories, when you think back as a kid, what do you think of as your favourite memories of that time?

MN: It is when I was enjoying playing with my friends ... we were very naughty.

AV: Give us an example?

DM: What kind of naughty things did you do? (Please, if you want to speak in Sotho go ahead)

MN: I was about 4 or 5 years old. The other children who were coming from the surrounding farms ... they used to stay after school. So when they would say that 'we are hungry', we would mock them and we started to sing songs about them.

DM: Do you still remember that song?

MN: Yes, I still remember. The name of that farm was Driftlane (?) and we were singing ... 'Driftlane ... the Driftlanes are hungry' .

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 3

DM: Do you feel bad about that now?

MN: (Laughing). Yes.

DM: When you moved, you told us that you came to Rammolutsi when you were doing Grade 8 right?

MN: Yes.

DM: When you came here ...life on the farm and life in Rammolutsi ... other than there being lots more people, how was it different for you to move into a place like this?

MN: Because I was a farm girl ... I was not free, I was always scared

DM: Did some of the other kids make fun of you here because you were from the farm?

MN: Yes, they treated us badly and we were beaten up by those at the school, those what were staying here at the location.

DM: Just because you were from the farm?

MN: Yes.

DM: How did that make you feel?

MN: Bad, very bad. Always on Friday's I go home ... we were staying with our relatives here and our parents were there at the farm. So every Friday after school I would make sure I would go home.

DM: But over time you made a lot of friends here, it started getting better?

MN: Yes.

DM: You told us that even though you didn't have electricity out on the farm you had plenty of food. How was it like when you came here in terms of food, water and electricity ... all those basic things for you when you came to Rammolutsi?

MN: My father usually sent us food with the transport of the farmer. The farmer gave our father transport because our father was a supervisor.

DM: So your dad was a supervisor, he had some power (laughing) ?

MN: Yes.

DM: You also told us about when you were a teenager, when you were in high school here in Rammolutsi during the 1980s, about the strikes, the students, the problems and everything. You said that there were some of the student who died or were injured. How did you feel about knowing people who were dying or getting hurt at the time ... were there close friends of yours or just people that you knew about?

MN: There were just the children that I know. Some of them there were the ones that I had been at school with them, so it was very sad.

DM: Did you go to a lot of funerals?

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 4

MN: No. Where we were staying at that time ... the older brother at that place was a policeman. So they didn't want to see us, the comrades ... (we were) the ones staying with the policeman. So they rushed us to the farm and the children of our relatives, we all went to parents place at the farms.

DM: How did your parents feel about all of this when you were in high school? Did your parents talk to you a lot about that, being afraid that something might happen to you?

MN: Yes. They were afraid. So we spent a lot of time staying at home on the farm and not going to school.

DM: And you yourself ... were you afraid of what might happen?

MN: Yes. I was also afraid .. and about the time that was wasted not going to school.

DM: And because of that ... the boycotts and those kinds of things ... How did that affect your own schooling, your own education? Because you were away from school, did you have to repeat, did you have to go back again to take extra classes?

MN: No. After that I think it was 2-3 months, we came back and moved on with our classes ... and I have managed to pass. I don't know, maybe it was with the help of God?

DM: Maybe it was because you are smart (all laughing) ... you obviously love education and so it was something that you wanted to do... ?

MN: Yes.

DM: Tell us a little but about how it was like when you were living with your relatives here ... how did you go about studying. Did you have electricity here? Was it difficult for you to keep up with your work, to study?

MN: Usually we studied at school, during the study classes at school.

AV: So you never used to study at home

MN: No.

AV: Why?

MN: We have been so many there at that place, the children.

AV: How many were you?

MN: It was my brother, my sister, me and the relatives children ... I think they were four. And the other outsiders. We have so many, maybe 10.

AV: And how big was the place?

MN: It was a four-roomed house. It is that first house there near the shops ... we were staying there.

AV: And when you studied, where di you go study?

MN: At the school. There were morning studies and afternoon studies.

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 5

DM: So if you had 10 kids and the other relatives staying there ... maybe 12-13 people in a four-roomed house ... so how did you feel about that? You told us on the farm there was quite a lot of room ...

MN: I could not do anything. But I enjoyed it because my brother and sister were there and the owner of the house was my grandmother. The girls were sleeping in their own room and the boys had their own room. We were so many ... other on the bed, others on the floor.

DM: How was it like cleaning yourselves? Did you have system where everybody got a chance ... did that mean you had to wake up early in the morning .. how did that work?

MN: Yes. We had a cleaning timetable ...

DM: What time did you get up in the morning?

MN: Five o'clock, six o'clock.

DM: Moving on ... you said that (when you were a teenager) part of the reason you joined in some of those struggles was because people were feeling oppressed. Just tell what you mean by that ... when you say, 'we were oppressed'. How did you feel as a sixteen year old young girl in Rammolutsi? How did you feel oppressed ... about how I wish I could this, I wish I could do that but I can't because of who I am - in other words, under apartheid, because of the colour of my skin?

MN: We were feeling oppressed because at that time it didn't matter what we said or did nobody was interested in us, our needs. Those in power didn't give us anything. When the struggle came we felt that we should join because if we can do something, fighting for our own rights, then those people can feel that we want something , we will be heard.

AV: This word 'oppressed' ... in your own words, what does it mean to you.

MN: Having no rights, not doing what you'll like to do and being beaten at school.

AV: So it was the denial of rights and physical beating ... ?

MN: Yes

D.M: At that time, in the mid to late 1980s ... when you looked at other kids say at the high school in Viljoenskroon, the white kids ... what did think about, well we're here and they are there ... ?

MN: Presently?

DM: No, at the time in the 1980s. Like the white kids, the ones in town? Did you have any contact with them?

MN: No.

DM: Did you feel like you wanted to know them ... ?

MN: Better, yes. And share the education with them. We didn't get that chance

AV: Did you know any white children growing up?

MN: Yes

AV: Tell us ... were you friends with them?

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 6

MN: No. it was the ones from our farms. We have been the same size as them but you know at that time, the white child, our parents make us to be afraid of them.

AV: Explain what you mean?

MN: The problem was that the farm owner was the boss of our parents and he told our parents that they mustn't play with his kids. So we were afraid of the white kids.

AV: What were you afraid of happening if you played with them?

MN: I didn't know what will happen but our parents were telling us that we mustn't play with them, so we were afraid.

DM: Did you obey? Or did you play with them?

MN: Yes. I never got a chance to play with them.

AV: And later in your life did you meet other white people who you became friends with?

MN: No, not even until today. Where my mom used to work before, here in town ... there the kids were alright but I never got a chance to play with the white kids ... I just helped my mom clean the house.

DM: Not just when you were a kid but all the way through ... that division of race, the fact that you were not able to have (white) friends when you were a child, or now ... How does that make you feel - in a country where it is clear that some people have a lot of things and other people don't have too much?

MN: Presently?

DM: Yes now, but you can also tell us how it made you feel then ... overall

MN: Now, I'm living my own life and those who have are living theirs, so I don't mind ... those that have.

DM: Do you wish it was different? That you could have different kinds of friends, not just people in Rammolutsi?

MN: Yes, I do wish.

AV: Earlier you were saying that your mom was a domestic worker and you were saying that you worked with her and used to go and help here ... How did you find that work?

MN: It was very difficult.

AV: Why?

MN: Because she did everything at that place, cooking, washing ... but when it came to lunchtime they were not sitting with my mom at the table - her food was on the side, after they have eaten and then they give my mom food.

AV: To you, was that not right?

MN: No, it was not right

AV: Explain

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 7

MN: It was unfair. When somebody works for you I think it would be better if they take them as a family or a friend because she was doing everything for them. Why can't they just sit there at the table and eat and share everything. Not giving her the left-overs?

AV: Why do you think they were like that?

MN: I don't know.

AV: If you were to guess ... or what did your mom used to think?

MN: My mother was old ... but me, I think it was the result of apartheid.

AV: So they were very much a part of the apartheid way of thinking?

MN: Yes, and they would pretend as if they didn't but they were ...

AV: Today, do you have friends that are domestic workers?

MN: No.

AV: Do you think it has changed for people who are working as domestic workers ... from what is was like for you mum?

MN: I don't know ... but what I see now is that there is some change because they have hours when they go to work and their salaries are a bit better and they are also given rights ... that's what I see.

AV: And your daughter ... would you allow her to become a domestic worker?

MN: No

AV: Why?

MN: Because it's difficult work

DM: Have you ever worked for a white boss, or a white firm or have you always been in education ... after 1994?

MN: No, I only went to help my mom, to be her assistant. But I myself have never worked for white people.

DM: When you finished matric here, what was it at that particular time that you wanted to do?

MN: I wanted to become a police officer, but because I was a young woman with a child, I couldn't do it since it was not allowed.

DM: Why a cop?

MN: I liked it, because of my height ... I liked the work very much.

AV: When you say because of your height, what do you mean? Why would that help if you were a policeman?

MN: At that time they wanted people who were my height ...

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DM: Did you have any role model in your life ... like a cop ... or because you saw their work and you liked that?

MN: My younger brother here when I was staying in Rammolutsi .. he was also the same height as me and I saw that they were doing a good job. But, after they started killing people, I said no this is not a good job for me.

DM: So the political situation became bad and you took that idea away?

MN: Yes.

DM: And then what did you think you wanted to do?

MN: That was when I go to the college.

DM: Did your parents want you to do anything in particular? Did they say we want you to do these kinds of things ... we want you to be this kind of person.

MN: To be in education, to be a teacher.

DM: Given what we've talked about . the situation about white/black and the discrimination under apartheid, what did you think it was possible for you to do? When you look at your choices, when you say I've got these choices in front of me ... what did you think your choices of a career were?

MN: I didn't have a choice, after having a child it meant that I couldn't be a police officer, so I had to do what my parents wanted me to do, to satisfy them I went to the college to be an educator.

AV: What else could you have done?

MN: After that I went to the Academy of Learning to do typing. After that I wanted to be a clerk at the mines, but I couldn't find a job there ... I did the basic office skills at the Academy but I didn't manage to get the job ... I don't know if it was bad luck or what, but I tried.

DM: When you told us you had the child and you went back to the farm and were working piece jobs ... How old were you when you had your child?

MN: I was 20 years old.

DM: Was it planned? Did you want to do this or was it something that just happened?

MN: No, it was just something that happened ... my boyfriend sent his parents to make a request for marriage. It was after that we had a baby.

DM: So were you pleased, were you happy?

MN: No, because I wanted many things before I get married and have a child.

DM: So when your boyfriend came and asked your parents for marriage, did you have any say or were you feeling that it was not up to you?

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 9

MN: I did agree because he was my boyfriend , but we were not going to get married at that time. So we just had a baby. What I wanted was that my parents should know he's my boyfriend and I' willing to marry him and he's willing to marry me.

DM: So tell us a bit about how that went afterwards? You got married?

MN: Yes.

DM: How was that relationship for you, with the father and the child?

MN: It failed.

DM: Do you want to tell us a little more about that (if you want to) ... Why do you think it failed?

MN: He wasn't faithful, he was a cheater.

DM: So did you leave him?

MN: Yes, I left him. But it was just a lobola arrangement

DM: Right after that you told us you went to this Academy of Learning, right after 1990 ... tell us a bit more about the Academy? What was it like there and what did you do?

MN: I did typing, basic office skills, keyboard.

DM: Were you boarding there, staying at the Academy?

MN: No. It was in Klerksdorp so I was travelling there every day

DM: That was at a time in 1990-91 when lots of things were happening in the country ... as someone who was getting further education did you see new doors opening for yourself? Tell us what you were thinking about at the time?

MN: Yes. By then many black people were starting to take the higher positions in the workplaces so I foresaw that I might have the opportunity to enter any door that is open for me.

DM: At the Academy, was it just black students or ... ?

MN: It was mixed

DM: So how was that ... being around, for the first time, other racial groups and learning with them?

MN: I felt it was good for me to attend school with different people ... but the problem was that we were not coming at the same times so there was (effective) seperation

DM: I'm imagining that most of your instruction was in English?

MN: Yes, it was English

DM: How was that for you? Did you know English well? How was it to have another language and have to work in English?

MN: I was just trying.

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 10

DM: How did you feel about a situation where these doors were opening, things were changing, but the only way for you to move ahead was to use another language, not your own? How did that make you feel?

MN: I was enjoying it

DM: And Afrikaans?

MN: There was no Afrikaans there. At college we did Afrikaans as a subject

AV: Which do you speak better, English or Afrikaans?

MN: I don't know which one I speak better.

DM: How many languages do you speak?

MN: Plus or minus 5 (Sesotho, Afrikaans, English, Xhosa, IsiZulu and Tswana)

D.M: You told us that after the Academy you went to Sebokeng College, correct?

MN: Yes.

DM: Tell us about getting into there? Was it good grades? Did you have to have a certain academic qualification to get in?

MN: I entered with my Std. 10 Certificate ... they count the points.

DM: What kind of students were at Sebokeng College?

MN: It was local but some of them were coming from Soweto, different places

DM: Was it exciting to be in that environment ... around other people from all over?

MN: It was great. I enjoyed it. They were there from Soweto, Lesotho ... and those from Soweto they didn't know Afrikaans so I helped them.

DM: You told us that when you moved from the far to Rammolutsi you were made fun of as a 'farm girl' ... so when you moved there from Rammolutsi was it like the same thing?

MN: It was a little bit similar. Sebokeng is very huge ...

DM: Did you stay on the campus or in the community ... where did you stay?

MN: I was travelling from Sasolburg.. I got a bus from Sasolburg to Sebokeng

DM: Were you by yourself, with family ... ?

MN: I rented a room there by myself.

DM: How did you find being in a situation which was different ... where there were many people in the community? As you say, Sebokeng is a big place and people are coming from different parts .... Were you afraid of that situation?

MN: No. That's when I started to make friends. I had my baby and most of the people were also parents.

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 11

DM: At that time ... what were things like for your mother and father because they had already moved from the farm and come into Rammolutsi ... and your father was employed by the municipality, correct?

MN: When they moved, my father was unemployed (from January to April) and then he got a job at the municipality. But before that my younger brother was working in Viljoenskroon as a gardener and my elder brother was also a policeman and he was the one who gave me money to register at Sebokeng College.

DM: Since you were young you've had a close family ... when looking at your story there's a lot of strength in your family. Is that very important to you? Your mother still lives with you and other relatives ... so it just keeps going?

MN: Yes, it's very important

DM: What does family means to you?

MN: My family is the big thing. It's where I get love, care, protection, security, lots of things. When I feel pain .. at home everything is always so easy for me.

DM: You told us that after you came here with your parents you built a shack ... tell us what it was like as a young person to move from a formal house into a shack and having to live there for many years?

MN: I was not so happy. It was always dirty, lots of dust and when the heavy rains came it leaked and the winds blew in dust.

DM: You talked about your mother and father had applied for an RDP house quite some time back and it never came. When I was reading through your story it was the first time that you had interaction with government, trying to get something from the government. Tell us about how that experience affected you in terms of your understanding of what government was about?

MN: It wasn't fair for the government to refuse to build us a house. Lots of the people here in Rammolutsi, even the rich ones, they stay in the RDP houses.

DM: That was at a time when the government was changing .. it had become a black government ... so, how did that make you feel as a black woman who needs assistance ... and your family needs assistance?

MN: It showed unfairness.

DM: So who did you think was benefiting from those programmes? (Break in tape ...)

DM: Since you moved here and built this house with your father pension money when he got paid out ... tell us about life here in Rammolutsi with your friends, your social life?

MN: I don't have close friends ...everybody is my friend including my neighbours. When I go out, I go out for a specific reason (like church) not just to visit somebody. I stay here and enjoy it. I don't have any enemies and don't quarrel with people ... everybody, I love them equally.

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 12

DM: What about friends from somewhere besides Rammolutsi, maybe from your College days. Do you visit people at all, go out of Rammolutsi?

MN: Some of them are still my colleagues at ABET so we meet at certain functions. When I go out of Rammolutsi, I go to visit my sister there in Klerksdorp and my brother at Virginia.

DM: Do you have any hobbies or things you like to do in your spare time?

MN: I like to watch TV, listen to the radio news.

DM: What kind of programmes do you particularly like?

MN: The soapies and the talk shows.

DM: Which soapie is your favourite?

MN: Generations, Le Muvhango and 7de laan I like a lot.

DM: And music?

MN: Gospel, only gospel.

DM: What church do you belong to?

MN: Universal Church of Christ

DM: And that's very important for you ... the church? What kind of role do you play in the church other than going on Sunday's to the service ... ?

MN: Yes. I sing in the choir.

DM: Does you choir enter any competitions?

MN: No, we just sing in the church there on Sundays.

DM: You said you hang out and do things with fellow ABET teachers... what kinds of things do you do with them, what kind of functions do you attend?

MN: We attend the workshops

DM: Do you get together socially though ... have a party etc. ?

MN: No, usually we attend the workshops and then afterwards we go back home.

DM: You talked to us about some of your attempts to organise the teachers and to get better working conditions and better salaries ... that you had written some letters and other things like that. What we didn't talk about though is the outcome of that ... has that produced any good results ... tell us about that?

MN: The conditions have changed at work. They still pay us according to our hours we have worked but now they calculate the hours on a monthly basis over the entire year.

DM: So why do you think that has changed and you have been able to get your demands met?

MN: I think it's because of the forum .. they put pressure on the government.

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 13

AV: One of the other things you said is that you weren't getting paid for preparation ... has that changed now?

MN: Yes.

DM: So now it's almost like a regular monthly salary yes ... and that makes a big difference for you?

MN: Yes. It's not so bad now ... it's four point something now from three thousand something.

DM: You previously talked about how a lot of the officials were very petty ... has that attitude begun to change as well?

MN: Yes. Now they send us the letter before they come. We signed a petition two weeks before ...

DM: So were there other teachers, like in Kroonstad, all of you together?

MN: Yes.

DM: You also talked about how you take your job very seriously - you prepare, you enjoy it and you can see the results. How do you get assessed as an ABET teacher?

MN: The supervisor makes the class visit and assesses

DM: What do they use to assess ... ?

MN: Preparations, all the work we have prepared. How we teach in the classroom, if we manage to do our work well and have reached your goal and the learners understand and we know how to do our work.

DM: You previously told us that most of your students are the pensioners/older people, is that still the case?

MN: Yes. There is one boy who is disabled. He used to attend the disabled school but because he was older they transferred him to the ABET school.

DM: With the changes, do you feel that your worth as a teacher has been recognised more ... before you told us that you felt you were being left behind?

MN: Yes. I enjoy doing my work so much, and because of the changes I feel free to do my job. When I go to work I feel good, no doubts.

DM: Previously you told us that your goal was to become a primary school teacher. Is that still the case or are you now satisfied?

MN: I like the small ones very much. I have a special love .. so I'm still looking for a job. At the primary school they do ask me to come and help them. I just volunteer there.

DM: If you're looking at the educational system as a whole you are obviously having success in teaching older people how to read and write .... How do you see your students benefiting from what is that you are teaching them outside of just being able to do the basics? Do you think it's going to assist them further?

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 14

MN: My students did not know how to read and write and their aim was to know how to read the bible and write their own names.

DM: So it's made a big difference?

MN: Yes, and they enjoy coming to school

AV: Now that you are getting paid a little bit more, are you coping better financially?

MN: Yes, a little bit. At least I can balance things now, not like before.

AV: Have you found that the prices of things have been increasing?

MN: Yes.

AV: Giver us an example?

MN: Mealie meal is too high and the units of pre- paid electricity are not the same as before.

DM: You told us that your mother still suffers from asthma ... how is she doing?

MN: She is fine. She is still going for the treatment at the PAX clinic - she is there now.

DM: And your child ... how are things for your child?

MN: She is in Grade 12 now ... and she is in the top ten at school, she is studying every Saturday there at Potchefstroom University.

DM: Does she talk with you about what she wants to do?

MN: She says she wants to be an electrical engineer because she is doing Maths and Science.

DM: She must make you quite proud huh?

MN: Yes, I'm too proud.

DM: What kind of future do you see for her now that she is almost finishing Grade 12? When you look at your child's future, what do you see?

MN: For her, I wanted her to be a pilot, but she refused to go.

DM: Why a pilot?

MN: It's the work that I like for her but she doesn't want to be a pilot .

AV: If you look at your parent's life and then you look at your life and you think about the potential of your daughter's life, are things getting better?

MN: Yes, there are lots of differences - they are better. My life was mixed with apartheid, but now my child is free. There are things that are now free like school fees ...

(There was a break in the digital recording at this point for a few minutes due to a battery failure and so a small portion of the interview during that time was not recorded. The interview picks up again below)

Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 15

DM: How do you see or what do you think about some of the recent changes that have been happening in the country ... the politics in the ANC and the leadership, you know there's been a lot of talk in the news and things have been happening since Polokwane. What's your feeling about things that are going on out there?

MN: There is a lot of mistrust and corruption on top there, that is why I decided to recently join the ANC and I have a membership card. There are a lot of criminals inside and we want to move those criminals out.

DM: So it sounds like you have been excited about the changes and maybe some of the opportunities that they present and for things to change and people that are in positions of power? That's how you feel?

MN: Yes.

DM: So you like what's happened?

MN: I decided to join the ANC because I have seen those people who are in power, those who are the leaders, are criminals. I think if we can start from the bottom to correct this leadership. What has happened is that those people who we voted for have quickly forgotten that we voted for them, so they don't look for our interests but only for themselves and their relatives. We must stand up and remind them of their promises.

DM: Do you see any future for yourself as a politician?

MN: Yes. if I can be patient I see a future for me as a politician. We want someone to do things for the community. If I am a councillor I must do things that the community wants me to do, not just decide for myself. I feel that if I had the power to remove that kind of person, that would be right/good for me.

DM: So, maybe next time we see you, you are going to be running a campaign for the local council?

MN: (Laughing). Yes.

DM: Do you feel that you would get support from the community?

MN: Yes I feel that I will have lots of support from the community.

DM: Just a last couple of questions. If you were in charge of ABET and its programmes what would you be doing? Would you keep things the way they are or would you change them?

MN: If I was in charge I would make sure that the ABET teachers get the same salary as the mainstream teachers. They must also get the benefits, like other teachers, such as the housing and car allowances. ABET teachers are doing serious and difficult work

DM: You mentioned that you see yourself, in the future, getting involved in politics. If you became a counsellor, what would be the first things that you would do as a counsellor in this community?

MN: The first thing that I would do as a counsellor is consult with the community so that that I will do things according to the needs of the community. I won't fulfil my needs; I Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 16 will fulfil the community's needs. For example, our roads in this area are bad and during the night this place is not safe - we are the forgotten area. They built toilets for us but the sewage is not functioning.

DM: Those are all the question I have. Is there anything that you wanted to say other than what you have already said, or covered?

MN: I am covered. I enjoyed this interview even if I don't know English properly.

AV: No, no, we enjoyed it. And you really don't have to worry about your English.

DM: Thank you very much.

MN: Thanks.

MINUTES: 92:39 Mmamodike Lydia Ntsane: 2008-04-02: 17