Transcript The South African History Archive (SAHA);

Project name: AL3283

Date of interview: 26 October 2009

Location of interview: Centurion, Pretoria

Language/s of interview: Afrikaans

Length of interview: 3 minutes 36 seconds

Name of Interviewer: De Wet Potgieter

Name of interviewee/s: Colonel Lucas Ras

Name of translator (if any): De Wet Potgieter

Name of transcriber:

Notes on access and use (if any):

Audio file name/s of interview: AL3283_PTA_RASLUCAS_20091026_2

De Wet Dit is Maandag 26 Oktober 2009 ek sit hier in Centurion, ek gesels met kolonel Lucas Ras. Lucas was voorheen by D-tak van die polisie se veiligheidstak was hy gestasioneer en voor dit was hy ook by Koevoet in Namibië het hy diens gedoen. Lucas, ek wil graag vandag met jou gesels oor ondervragingstegnieke wat die veiligheidspolisie gebruik het destyds. As jy my kortliks net kan verduidelik wat is die belangrikste maniere wat julle ondervragings gedoen het om inligting uit aangehoudenes te kry.

Lucas De Wet, eerstens kan ek vir sê verskillende mense het verskillende tegnieke gebruik en elke ou het gedink sy tegnieke wat hy gebruik is uniek. In Namibië byvoorbeeld daar het ons tegniek gehad ons het dit die Sandgat genoem waar jy die ou se hemp oor sy kop getrek het, gat gegrou meter diep en hom kop eerste in die gat gegooi en die gat toegegooi.

Obviously kry hy nie asem nie, maar hy kry ook nie sand in sy longe nie en sou hy iets oorkom was dit moeilik om te bewys waaraan, of moeilik om te bewys dat hy wel gemartel is of wat ookal.

In Suid-Afrika waar daar nie so baie sand is nie het ons ander tegnieke gebruik. Die een daarvan is die telefoon waar jy die ou elektriese skokke mee gee. Draadjie op die oor en die ander draadjie op die privaatdele. Jy weet, die ou slingertelefone gebruik het.

Wat ons met een spesifieke geval gedoen het, het ons nylontou aan sy boeie vasgemaak terwyl ons hom geshock het en die nylontou het ons oor telefoondraad gegooi. In die hof het hy gesê ons het kragdrade gebruik om hom te shock, maar obviously gaan niemand dit glo. Sal net kooltjie oorbly as dit die geval was.
En dan natuurlik die tube wat baie ouens gebruik het. Dit is baie gevaarlike ding. Party ouens kan dit oordoen as die adrenalien pomp. Ek persoonlik het dit nooit gedoen nie ek was bietjie bang gewees daarvoor, maar ek was by en gesien waar ouens dit gedoen het.

Ander metodes om ys in ou se anus op te druk. Blinddoek hom en sê jy gaan hom brand met warm yster en ek verstaan dit voel soos warm yster, maar daar is nooit bewyse daarvoor nie. Dit het ook goed gewerk.

De Wet Lucas, kan jy weer vir ons om terug te kom na die tube toe. Verduidelik net vir my wat is die tube, hoe word dit gedoen dat mens net weet anders kan die tubes enigiets beteken.

Lucas Dit is motor-binneband wat oor die gesig getrek word. Dit sluit alles oor die neus en veral die mond. Dan trek jy dit oor en styf sodat hy nie asem kry nie. Jy kan ook prisoniersak, sak wat die prisoniers se lyfband en goeters wat by hom afgeneem word as hy in die selle toegesluit word. Is PPR-sak, prisoners property bag. Wat jy natmaak met water en jy trek dit oor die Gesig ook en draai hom styf om sy nek. Ook ding wat baie goed werk baie benoud raak .

Project name: AL3283 Date of interview: 26 October 2009 Location of interview: Garsfontein, Pretoria Language/s of interview: Afrikaans Length of interview: 13 minutes 36 seconds Name of Interviewer: De Wet Potgieter Name of interviewee/s: Colonel Lucas Ras Name of translator (if any): De Wet Potgieter Name of transcriber: Notes on access and use (if any): Audio file name/s of interview: AL3283_PTA_RASLUCAS_20091026_2 De Wet It is Monday 26 October 2009 and I am here in Centurion, talking to Colonel Lucas Ras. Lucas was attached to D branch of the police’s security branch en before that did service with the counter insurgency group, Koevoet, in Namibia. Lucas, I would like to talk to you today about the interrogation techniques used by the security police in the old days. If you could briefly explain what were the most important ways of interrogation to extract information from detainees. Lucas De Wet, firstly I can say that different people favoured different ways of conducting an interrogation and every guy regarded his way of doing it as unique. In Namibia for example, we had a technique, we called it the Sand Pit, where we pulled the guy’s shirt over his head, dug a hole in the sandy soil a meter deep, throw him head first into the hole and fill it up with sand. Obviously he couldn’t breathe, but he also didn’t get any sand into his lungs with the shirt over his head and if something bad happens to him it would be extremely difficult to prove in court that he was tortured. In South Africa where there are less sand we used other means. The one is the telephone where you shock the guy. A wire over one ear and the other over his private parts. You know the old telephone with the handle you had to turn worked wonderfully. In one specific case we tied a nylon rope to a detainee’s handcuffs while we shocked him. The rope was thrown over a telephone line. In court he testified that we used the power lines to shock him, but obviously nobody believed such a story. If that was the case he would merely be a piece of charcoal afterwards. And of course the tube used by so many guys. It was very dangerous. Some guys could overdo it when the adrenaline was pumping high. I personally never used this method, a bit careful for it, but I was present during interrogation witnessing it. Other methods to force ice up a person’s anus. Blindfold him and tell him you are going to burn him with a hot rod iron. I understood the ice did feel like something burning up his backside, but there were never medical proof that he was in fact burned. It worked very well. De Wet Lucas, can we come back to the tube method. Please explain to me what the tube was how it was done. Lucas It is a motor vehicle’s tire tube pulled over somebody’s face. It covers the nose and in particular the mouth. You pulled it very tight over the face so that the detainee cannot breathe at all. You could also use a so-called prisoner’s bag—that is the canvass bag used to put a detainee’s personal belongings in when locked in police cells. This PPR bag was then soaked in water pulled over the head and tightened over his throat creating a horrible suffocating effect. It also worked very well.