Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-06-13
Location of interview: Maandagshoek, Limpopo
Language of interview: Sotho
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Joyce Kgwete
Name of translator: Emmanuel Mokgoga
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name of interview: AHP_MAA_KgweteJoyce_20070613 INTERVIEW WITH JOYCE KGWETE

Dale: Can you just tell us your full name and your position in the community.

Interviewee: Joyce Kgwete, "Kgosigadi" the wife of the chief of Maandagshoek

Dale: Can you just tell us were you born in a family here in Maandagshoek and when were you born, were you raised here?

Joyce: I was born at Manganeng at Sekhukhune, I am married here and I'm staying with my in-laws.

Dale: What year was that?

Joyce: 1974 November on the 8th.

Dale: When did you come to this community Maandagshoek?

Joyce: 1991

Dale: Can you tell us a little bit about your Kgosi, your family, was your father a kgosi (King) ... here in Maandagshoek or somewhere else?

Joyce: For me to become a queen the king of Manganeng and my father they are siblings and the king of Manganeng is older than my father, I come from a royal family.

Dale: Can you tell us a little bit what it was like to grow up in a family of chiefs? Was it a different life from other children?

Joyce: I will say life was not different; different will be when we go to traditional school only.

Dale: Why the difference?

Joyce: At the traditional school (circumcision) when other girls go to fetch water and woods, us the children from the royal family don't go there, they fetch water for us, and when we go and sew blankets ourselves we do no use the same material with the other girls.

Dale: Do you have your memories of the 70s and 80s of what it was like in the struggles, all the struggles that were happening, what was it like to be a chief's child, was your father involved politically or were you involved?

Joyce: Myself I was very young I don't know anything, for what was happening I just know from the 80s when we started running.

Dale: Joyce can you tell us about the 80s because you were born in 74, maybe you were a teenager, 10-11. What was it like; did your father get into trouble with the authority?

Joyce: In the 80s it was the time of the protests, it was the time when they were still fighting for Mandela to be released from prison, my brothers were no longer sleeping at home, we were struggle at home, always making him escape and run, because he was one of the leaders of the community when protesting

Dale: So your family was politically involved? And how was it like being a girl with all the man in the chiefs? As a young girl was there a difference for you?

Joyce: Because my father was a little chief, he was supposed to take care of the people, no, there were no difficulties.

Dale: Can you tell us a little bit, I can see you T-shirt, long live the king Sekhukhune the 3rd and he just died last year, can you tell us about the house of Sekhukhune's history?

Joyce: King Rams Sekhukhune is the big chief of Bapedi in Sekhukhune at Mohlaletse Martin, the one's mother was married in Manganeng as Mrs Mankopodi Mahlaku Nkadimeng, and basically his mother is my aunt.

Dale: How long has the Sekhukhune chieftaincy existed, do you know Joyce?

Joyce: I don't know

Dale: So, when things began to change in the country in 1990 when the unbanning and all the things happened, you were 16 or 17 in high school right. What as the daughter of the chief or brothers, how was it like for you when things started to shift and politically things stared to change?

Joyce: I don't see any changes.

Dale: Nothing changed, I'm trying to get us in the 90s ... were you in school that side or here?

Joyce: I was that side.

Dale: Tell us a little bit about that time period in 91, 92, and 93, were you toyi-toying all the time as a student with all the changes happening, what were you doing at that time?

Joyce: We will just see people toyi toying but as for changing I don't see anything as changed.

Dale: And what did you feel like when April 1994 happened, what was your feeling inside?

Joyce: In 1994? I just saw us going to vote but for feeling I was not feeling anything.

Dale: You didn't feel anything? Why?

Joyce: It's the same I just went to vote but I don't see any changes.

Dale: But that was 14 years ago, even at that time like 95, you had no excitement about things were going to get better?

Joyce: No, I went to vote when I was pregnant; they just picked me by a car I didn't see what was happening.

AV: Did you get your matric?

Joyce: No, I reached standard nine.

AV: So what did you start doing after your last school?

Joyce: I didn't do anything.

AV: Tell me, why didn't you finish school?

Joyce: When these people married me, they said I must quit school to take care of my duties.

Dale: Who told you?

Joyce: It is the one who gave me a child.

Dale: Did you marry because you wanted to or because you were told so, like it was an arranged marriage?

Joyce: I was told, we did not meet at the street.

Dale: So you were told to get married, how did you feel? Did you like it?

Joyce: It was just parent stuff in the royal family, they just came with a man and said they are asking for a jug of water and I called parents and they said to me here is a man, he comes from wherever and since you are royal blood you don't have a choice.

Dale: After you got married and you had a child, did you stay at home or did you start working or what did you do?

Joyce: I stayed at home.

Dale: And you came here and sit, when did you say you came in Maandagshoek?

Joyce: When I started staying here it was 2001.

Dale: So up until 2001 you stayed at the place that side?

Joyce: Yes.

Dale: In the community that you were there, I'm trying to get a picture of what life is like for in a family of chiefs, when did it come clear to you that you were going to be a chief yourself?

Joyce: When I came to Maandagshoek there was a woman they married at Manganeng, married by Chief Mamphahlane the older man from Mawela was married at Mamganeng for a wife here. Mamphahlane was a chief but she was just a wife not a chief. It reached a time when they bared children, these children were girls and for Mamphahlane there were boys and girls. The boy they call Mamonei married a woman from Mawela again the did not have male children. When they did not have male children that's when they married me for that family with no male children, so that I can start afresh.

Dale: Can you tell us a bit about that point what do you remember being in a family of chiefs. What kind of things did your family have to deal with and your father, your brothers as representatives of the community, as chiefs?

Joyce: Is to lead the people.

Dale: When you became a chief, were you proud about this fact or did you or was the responsibility something you were not happy about?

Joyce: I was never happy, I said they forced me can I be happy with what I didn't know.

Dale: Just to go back to my previous question, what I was trying to ask about she saying the chief the role was to lead the people. What kind of things that you have to deal with, even the small or big things that you do daily? If someone was to ask you what you do as chief?

Joyce: I'm taking care of the community, when there are differences I help and when people want letters for the bank I write for them and put a stamp and when people want accommodation we give them and other things.

AV: You said you were not happy when you became the headman, what did you want to do for yourself?

Joyce: I wanted to go to school so that I can learn and be educated to do something about my future.

Dale: As a women chief, there are no enough women chief leaders in this country, even whether is Sekhukhune land or anywhere in the different countries and the different places in the country, we will be interested to know when she became to be chief was there any resistance, was there any problems for her as becoming woman chief as opposed to man?

Joyce: Yes, there was a problem with the people before because problem was that they did not have a boy because the chief is born by the wife and chief and the child of Mashidi Mamonei did not have a boy, they just had a disabled girl. There are many problems with the people saying they can't be led by a woman.

Dale: Describe the problems?

Joyce: The problems were that for me to came here there was someone who was appointed to look for the community temporarily the one I brought a child with who is Ralekgwetla until the time when they married me, they told him that since the person who is to lead the people is here, we are asking you to step down for the your wife because you married a woman. The problem started there and he said he can't step down because he is the chief, and his group said they want to be led by him, some community people said we went to marry a woman with our money to look after our community and here she is.

Dale: Do you know much about how the government have approached the role of chiefs, can you tell us if you know much? Are there support and a relationship between the chief and councillor?

Joyce: In the royal house we have two parties; the "Contralesa and Sediba sa bogoshi". Government have the party that respect and then government does not respect Sediba sa Bogoshi. Contralesa gets support from the government, they build offices and give those cars but us the Sediba saBogoshi we don't get the support.

Dale: Why do you think the government does not recognise Sediba sa Bogoshi?

Joyce: The reason is that I'm in the Sediba saBogoshi, so I know.

Dale: What do you think the government is only recognising the other party and not the other one? Is it political or is it because they are in the other side that they don't get along with each other?

Joyce: There are political problems.

Dale: What is the problem, is it the problem because you are in Limpopo or what?

Joyce: The problems with politics are that the time of commission of Raleshae, people went to submit forms saying they are chiefs and though they are not chiefs. We from the old government, where the boers oppressed us, the elder Ralegashane never applied for the forms because there was government of oppression, is now that we are waiting for commission Ramphatlo.

Dale: Previously when we were talking about 1994 you said you were just living your life it didn't seem like much was changing. Since you became chief since 2001 it is now 6 years almost have you seen any positive changes in this community and what has happened as a result of the democracy and the new government?

Joyce: I don't see anything.

Dale: As the chief, what have you been saying to the authorities that this community must get. What kinds of things that you have been thinking herself as chief, to the government?

Joyce: We don't have roads, we don't have water, when its raining kids can't go to school because of the roads that we have now and our royal house does not have office and there is nothing.

Dale: And as a chief in this community why does she think that a lot has not changed in this community?

Joyce: Now for things not to change, I think this new government is full of corruption.

Dale: When you say bad spirits do you mean that the government does not care about people like in Maandagshoek?

Joyce: Yes, they don't have that responsibility.

Dale: What do you think is that?

Joyce: They don't have responsibility because as I'm speaking now at our local municipality in the Greater Tubatse, they don't even know who the chiefs of Maandagshoek are. They don't tell us anything, when they have meetings we don't know nothing and even when its good things.

Dale: Did you have any involvement when the mine came into this community?, In negotiations, in setting the section 21?

Joyce: No, I don't have any role or involvement with the mine, They talked to Ralph because they came misuse him the way they want, when they started they said they want to work with Ralph

Dale: Ralph is her former husband? And what is his role?

Joyce: I don't know what he do because in the mine they appointed him as chairperson of section 21 of chieftaincy.

Dale: Do you think that Joyce, when the mine came here the intention was to divide the traditional leaders in order to control them and get what they wanted?

Joyce: Yes they divided us.

Dale: Since the mine has been here since they came in 2001 about the time that you became chief, how would you describe things in the community in terms of changing for the better or for the worse?

Joyce: I was looking at roads, water and the children that they will build them tertiary, nice schools and a high class clinic.

Dale: How have you responded to that with the community, what kind of things have you done to try and get them involved and the government to respond to the needs here?

Joyce: I and the chief we had our plans and they were disturbed by the mine which came and started taking people's farms by force, that's when we ran and stop them and they reported us at the police, so we were still at court, and for there is nothing that I can say we did.

Dale: Have you been arrested by the police?

Joyce: Yes.

Dale: Tell us how that was like?

Joyce: When I got arrested I was at home wanting to take a bath, I was with my messenger, and my messenger called me and said Joyce there are many police cars outside here, police cars, where are they she said outside. When I looked it was true they were there, they came and knocked and my messenger said she is still bathing, then they waited at the door when I went out there cars were seventeen, and they said they came to arrest me because are expelled the machine people for the mine when they came to prospect, they showed me the paper saying they made me a court interdict that I illegally went to the place that they claim I'm not suppose to go, so it was illegal, there are places that they say I must not go in.

Dale: Did you spend time in Jail?

Joyce: I slept one day.

Dale: Why do you think they arrested you?

Joyce: It was just painful as I suffered from colds in jail without killing any person.

AV: Why do you think the community supported you instead of Ralph?

Joyce: The reason is that they married me with their own money, they are the ones who collected money to marry me, Ralph did not contribute with anything

Dale: In the last five years since you became chief, you have talked about the problems in the community, things that have not changed. As a mother, as chief you talked about the water and everything but what about the opportunities for people particularly children, including your children in the community. Opportunities for life whether that's education, employment and any other kind of things?

Joyce: I believe they must get them, that is what we fight for, so that our children can get good things, though we are fighting for them but we don't see them but we are preparing for our children.

Dale: For example we have talked to a quiet number of people, yesterday we talked to a pastor of the apostolic church he was giving us an indication that, something that I have not realised, that there is a lot of hunger in this community, is that the case, did you come across a lot of situations, so no just the basic services but the things that are quiet bad?

Joyce: Much more, some of them they fail to even bury them and we then collect money as the community.

Dale: As chief, do you have any access to resources to help the community?

Joyce: Now I don't have resources because I don't get any salary even myself but as a community we try to help one another, when someone is experiencing such problems we donate because even if we go to government there is nothing they can help us with.

Dale: So if you are not earning a salary from the government how do you make a living?

Joyce: I live by the community, when I don't have anything like maize meal I tell them and they collect money and give me

AV: In your life, what was the best proudest moment of your life, the moment that made you the best happier proud?

AV: The second question, what was the moment that made you sad?

Joyce: I hate noise.

AV: When we go back to Joburg and the people who are going to see this video, what message will you like to tell the people outside Maandagshoek?

Joyce: Just to ask them that basically what it that the government and the mining people what is it that they are going to do in our community, to divide us and take us to prison, since I was born I have never heard anywhere people saying a chief or queen has been arrested without committing anything.

Minutes: 48