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Part two of the first interview with Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
Part two of the first interview with Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava.
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Part one of the first interview with Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (September 9, 2007)
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker of Sebokeng, during an interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
Second interview with Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (May 14, 2008)
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Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-09-09
Location of interview: Sebokeng, Gauteng
Language of interview: Sotho
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Thulo Ezekiel Motseki
Name of translator: Joseph Matutoane
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_SEB_MotsekiThuloEzekiel_20070909b INTERVIEW WITH THULO EZEKIEL MOTSEKI. START OF AHP_SEB_MotsekiThuloEzekiel_20070909b
Dale McKinley (DM): Okay, we're back on. What kind of job in SAMANCOR did you first start with?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki (TEM): I started working as a labourer, I was working shifts with the braziers, boiling metal and steel.
DM: So you started working there in the late 1970s. How old were you? Was it is in the 80's ... what year did you start working there?
TEM: Late 1986.
DM: Were you given any training, were you given any ... to do that kind of work?
TEM: There was no training, they showed us where to work, gave us instructions and we relied on our colleagues.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): What kind of work were you doing there?
TEM: Pushing trolleys of melted iron and making sure that there were no blockages in the way.
AV: Was that the kind of work that you carried on doing at SAMANCOR?
TEM: There was a strike in 1987, then SAMANCOR fired us. We went to court and then returned to our work in 1988 again. I then went to work in a plant called 'South Plant'. We were working with some chemicals, building a pot where the metal would be poured. DM: And at that time, before and after the strike, what were your wages?
TEM: It was better off than before the strike, though less.
DM: How much were you getting paid?
TEM: Before the strike I earned R300 a week. From South Plant they changed me to working at the offices where I got a little increase. I worked as a messenger.
AV: The strike, was it only about wages or was it also about work conditions?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 1
TEM: The strike was about wages and also harassment in the work environment.
AV: When you say harassment, can you tell us what you mean?
TEM: Unfair dismissal and the disrespectful manner between the management and the workers - you could get chucked out at anytime.
DM: I just want to go back to a more personal question. Your father passed away previously - how many people were in your family, brothers and sisters with your mother?
TEM: Six, then when my father died there were five left.
DM: Your mother and four children?
TFM: Yes.
DM: Are where were you , the youngest, oldest, in the middle somewhere?
TEM: I am the first born.
DM: When you got your first job at the abattoir and then at SAMANCOR, were you taking care of your family or was your mother still working then?
TEM: I was the only one who was working so I was responsible alone.
DM: So you were the sole bread winner?
TFM: Yes.
DM: Ok I just want to ask you ... when you first said that you were using these thinners and pouring the metal into there ... were you provided with any - at that point - any training, any special equipment, any protection, these kinds of things?
TEM: Yes, we were provided with protection.
DM: What kinds of things, can you tell us what kind of training and what you were told ...?
TEM: In the first job they were just instructing us, there was no training.
AV: The union that was organising at SAMANCOR at that time, what union was it?
TEM: NUMSA.
AV: Did you join NUMSA as soon as you started working at SAMANCOR?
TEM: Yes, I joined NUMSA immediately after I was employed at SAMANCOR.
DM: And just in terms of the union did they ... how important was issues of work place safety and so forth, from NUMSA?
TEM: I never saw NUMSA staff coming to look for the safety of workers, there was no attention from the union, but the subscriptions were being deducted every week.
AV: When you say there wasn't any attention from NUMSA in terms of the workers what do you mean?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 2
TEM: As far as I know, I never saw them coming to check our working conditions as our representatives. Maybe there was a meeting (with union reps and management) where workers could complain about their jobs.
AV: In terms of the work that you were doing at the time, did you have complaints about the conditions of your work?
TFM: We were not negotiating directly to the union but negotiating our grievances through the shop stewards, the union was far away.
AV: Sure, but my question is ... outside of the union, you yourself at the time you were doing this work, did you have complaints or did you believe that maybe there was a problem in terms of the conditions that you were working under?
TEM: At that time even if you feel pressure or feel that there is an unsafe environment, it was very hard to face management and complain to the foremen about the conditions of work by yourself.
AV: Okay, I am not asking whether you actually complained but were you happy with the conditions of work?
TEM: I was not happy but there was no choice. Even if the working conditions were not good, we were telling ourselves that at least we have a job, earn a living wage every week or month to support our families/kids.
AV: What were the things that you were unhappy about?
TEM: Work conditions were risky and scary. For example, things like braziers would explode at times and we had nowhere to go and complain, there were no other options.
AV: At this time...I am taking it out of this ... at this time in terms of your own personal life, were you married now?
TEM: Yes I was married but after I became sick from the chemicals at SAMANCOR, my wife decided to leave me.
DM: Okay, you didn't have any children from that first marriage?
TEM: No, we never had children because chemicals caused damage to my fertile system.
DM: Okay, we got to the point when you said you changed jobs and became a messenger in the office there. So, take us from there ... how long did you stay in that job?
TEM: As a messenger, I worked for 4-5 years but I am not sure since the damage from the manganese has caused a loss of memory. From there, I was moved to the laboratory where I was regularly working with chemicals.
DM: Okay. Now, it sounds to me from the timeframe, that you made that move almost at the same time ... if you were there as messenger for 3 or 4 years ... at the same time that the political changes started taking place in the country ... 1993/94, somewhere around there?
TEM: That was the riots period, I can't really remember, those of 1976 I was still young at school, in 1984 I was working at the butchery and in1987 we were on strike in SAMANCOR?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 3
DM: My question was if you can remember ... it's not so much the exact date ... but when the political changes in 1994, was that about the same time that you made the shift to working in the laboratory? Was that about the time?
TFM: Huuum...?
DM: It's okay ... so somewhere in that region.
DM: Do you remember at the time, when Mandela became President and everything .. were there any changes that happened in SAMANCOR, in the factory, in the working situation, the management? Anything that you can remember? .... I'm asking specifically if there were any changes at SAMANCOR, in the job, after 1994?
TEM: I don't remember any changes. Nothing changed.
AV: And during 1994 when everything was happening and in the 1990s when Mandela was released, the ANC un-banned and then democracy ... do you remember how you felt and maybe what you were hoping for in terms of the broader changes that were happening?
TEM: I was thinking that there will be better job opportunities and a better living for all as they promised. But it didn't happen.
DM: When you are say 'job opportunities', what kind of a job were you wanting to do?
TEM: Any job that would give me a better wage, that would enable me to live like other people and meet my needs and those of the family, such as extending my house.
DM: When you started working in the laboratory what was your wage at that point?
TEM: At first I was earning... the grading rates were A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3, B4 and B5. I was on B1. I was earning R300 and something, per week.
AV: When did you start realising that maybe your body was being affected by the chemicals that you were working with?
TEM: It was in 19... I don't remember because I have lost lots of my memory. I realised when I started to have symptoms of epilepsy.
AV: When did you discover you have epilepsy?
DM: Like five years ago, ten years maybe?
TEM: Around 1998.
DM: And when you started working in the laboratory - I was looking at this picture that you provided - what kinds of chemicals were you working with, did you know what these chemicals were?
TEM: A lot of them, I knew some of them, hypo-flouric, HCL ...
DM: A whole range of them. What exactly did you do in the laboratory?
TEM: I was working with samples of these.
DM: What did you do with those samples, did you test them, or what did you do with them?
TEM: We were preparing, mixing and measuring chemicals and putting them in the containers and waiting for analysers to come ...when the analysers came they put them in the samples.
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 4
DM: And when you were doing this job, were you receiving any training for this?
TEM: There was no training but we were put next to someone who was already working there for some time so we can learn from him.
DM: And I am noticing from the picture that you weren't wearing anything, did you have any...at any time that you worked there did you have any kind of safety gear ... I can see that you were wearing gloves that's all?
TFM: We were not given any safety measures, they didn't care about our safety. Nobody was responsible. The management would just let you work whether you are protected or not. But if you demand, say maybe the nose plugs, it is only then that you receive them.
DM: Did you demand them? When you started working here, did you start feeling ill?
TEM: There was chaos. It was only if you were injured/there was an accident, that they would then give some help because they could see that you are getting worse. And even then it was only when you demanded them. There were protection facilities/equipment but they were only used when we got sick We were given safety only when there has been an accident or an injury.
DM: What were the first signs that you felt, physically? What started happening? You said previously it was when you started getting epilepsy ... or was it breathing ... what were the signs?
TEM: It was headaches, chest pains and joints.
DM: So when you started feeling this things at the factory...did the factory have a medical facility or did you go to a doctor?
TFM: There were so many things, including sexual dysfunction that were on top of these things ...
DM: Okay, and the other question ... was there a medical facility at SAMANCOR or did you go to a private doctor?
TEM: In SAMANCOR we were checked every month. a check up and X-rays. The doctors were examining our urine. But after the check-up they would not tell us whether we are sick or not, they didn't tell us what was happening. They would just tell us to go to work, you are okay.
DM: And all during this time that this was happening, just to go back to the question that we asked previously ... was there any support or anything from the union?
TEM: NUMSA was not responsible for anything. Like I said we were to be checked every month by the factory doctor, he took x-rays, our urine and blood samples but NUMSA did not take any part.
AV: When you started feeling sick, you were you still working at SAMANCOR?
TEM: Yes, it started in SAMANCOR.
AV: Did you speak to the doctor and say, look this is what you are feeling?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 5
TEM: We couldn't talk to a doctor, we couldn't ask any questions. The doctor would just come and check us, fill the papers and not tell us about our health problems. Then we would go back to work.
AV: Did you go and see a doctor outside of work?
TEM: When the epilepsy got worse, they did take me to the medical bureau of the SAMANCOR doctors.
AV: Who took you there?
TEM: SAMANCOR.
AV: When you went to the bureau what did they say to you then?
TFM: They made a brain scan and after that the x-ray was taken. They just told me that I have water on my brain and even though I wanted to see the x-rays, they refused to give them to me.
DM: Did they try to explain to you what the reason was why you had the water on the brain or what was the reason for these problems?
The translator: He said the diagnosis was epilepsy.
DM: So their diagnosis was epilepsy?
The translator: Yes.
AV: When you say they wouldn't give you your x-rays, did you ask them for all your medical records and they refused?
TEM: We were not allowed to see any papers. They knew but that was their secret.
AV: How long did you carry on working?
TEM: The epilepsy started in 1998 if I'm not mistaken and then I worked until 2001.
DM: I want to know, during this time that you were seeing the doctor, where there other workers ... that you were talking amongst yourselves ... other workers that were saying the same kinds of things, feeling the same kinds of problems with their bodies?
TEM: There was a time when we will meet and talk among ourselves. Sometimes our departmental management gave us time to talk about our working conditions.
DM: So when you talked with your other comrades, with the other workers, did they have similar kinds of stories and similar kinds of problems?
TEM: Yes we had problems, though different ones. But most of us were affected by manganese and that's why we got retrenched.
DM: Ok before we get to that point about being retrenched I want to ask you ... during this time you said you know, 1998 you got epilepsy and you worked until 2001 and all of these things were happening to your body ... for you, how did that affect your personal life and your family life?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 6
TEM: Life was not good at home. Things were very hard to bear. The epilepsy could strike at any time and my mother could not sleep because she was watching me. During the day, my younger siblings were around me. I always had somebody to watch over me
DM: Now 2001 you were retrenched, is that correct?
TEM: Yes.
DM: What was the reason? Tell us about that retrenchment?
TEM: In 1990, doctors took our blood, urine and nail samples at SAMANCOR to be sent to the laboratory in Cape Town for examination for manganese poisoning. We waited for the report, without knowing our status. Then when we were told that we were retrenched in 2001, we realised that it was because the management knew they had infected us with manganese.
DM: How many people were retrenched with you, when you were retrenched?
TEM: Those that were retrenched with me I would say more than 200.
DM: More than 200?
TFM: Yes.
DM: Of those 200, did you know that most of them had done the tests as well? In other words I'm asking you - did you think everybody was being retrenched because the management had found out that they were now poisoned with manganese?
TEM: Yes, they knew that all of us were affected by manganese. Like I said, that they took our urine samples, nails to check the manganese. (change of tape)
DM: What was the official explanation given for the retrenchments?
TEM: They told us that they were closing down a furnace that was no longer going to work and thus they had no choice but to retrench us.
AV: Were you working directly with that furnace?
TEM: No, I was working with the metals from the furnaces that would come to the lab for testing.
DM: So when you were handed your retrenchment notices, yourself and all of the 200 people ...what did you do?
TEM: By that time it was not nice. We called NUMSA to help us and talk to the management.
AV: Did you at that time, in so far as you already suspected that the reason you were being retrenched was because of your illness, did you ask SAMANCOR for your medical records?
TEM: As I said earlier, no one was allowed to see his/her medical reports at SAMANCOR. Even if the files were packed in the medical room, no one was allowed to go near that office.
AV: And NUMSA at this time, when you went to NUMSA what was their response?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 7
TEM: No one from NUMSA attended to our grievances. We tried to call them several times and some of them got fed up with us for calling for help.
DM: What kind of package were you given when you were retrenched?
TEM: R90 000 before tax, after tax it was only R70 000.
DM: And you had been working for almost 20 years at SAMANCOR? TFM: I worked in SAMANCOR for 13 years.
AV: Was it calculated in terms of how long you had worked?
TFM: That's what we didn't know, whether it was according to the time we worked. Because if I still remember correctly all of us we were given R90 000 regardless of the years worked.
DM: So Ezekiel just tell us, once you were retrenched from SAMANCOR, how was your physical condition at that point now, 2001?
TEM: Since then nothing is right with my body. I am always sick, I am always in bed. My body is painful all day long.
DM: After you got retrenched, did you go to see an independent doctor or did you go see someone else to maybe see exactly what is going on?
TEM: Yes, I went to lots of different doctors but no doctor has been able to tell me what is really happening or causing damage to my body.
DM: When did start joining with the other retrenched workers of SAMANCOR to try to fight to get back your records, your pensions and all those things?
TEM: We started in 2001.
DM: Almost exactly after you got retrenched you joined the retrenched group?
TEM: Yes.
DM: And just tell us what has happened since that time in your attempts to try and get compensation and get recognition?
TEM: We fought a lot with SAMANCOR. We went to SAMANCOR where we marched and had pickets with placards where we wrote our queries. They called police to fight with us and to stop us from entering their premises. Then we meet with the APF who rescued us.
DM: And it's now 2001, six years since that time ... do you feel as though you have any justice ... have you gotten justice for what's happened?
TEM: There has been some justice, but only from the comrades.
DM: And Ezekiel, in all of these things that have happened to you, your sickness, the retrenchment ... what would you say about the role, or has there been any role ... have you tried to go and seek support from the government or the public at all and how has the response been?
TEM: All of us tried, we even went to the Department of Labour. We tried to seek help at the compensation section, asked them to involve themselves in our struggle, then we confronted Mr Mdladlana as the Minister of Labour. We asked him to intervene on our struggle and he told us Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 8 to stop fighting with SAMANCOR and to go to the workmen's compensation section. He said that was the only help that he can offer us.
DM: With the workmen's compensation, has there been any movement there?
TEM: Truly speaking we never went to the workmen's compensation because our struggle was between us and SAMANCOR. Workmen's compensation didn't have anything to do with our sickness and the chemicals ...
DM: That's what they told you?
The interpreter: No, they told themselves ...
DM: Ezekiel ... I know it's probably a very difficult things in terms of what's happened to you but now, six years on what do you feel about what has happened to you, how do you feel like?
TEM: What I can tell you about these six years is that I live a painful life (breaks down) .
DM: Maybe a bit more of a positive question What would you consider Ezekiel, as something that would be justice for you? You said some good things have happened with the comrades but full justice, what would you consider ... even though I know some of the things cannot be reversed ... but where you are now?
TEM: What I want is that SAMANCOR should compensate us.
DM: Thank you.
AV: Is there anything that would you like to add?
TEM: SAMANCOR should compensate us with the money that we have demanded so that we can support our families and children.
DM: Thanks for your time.
MINUTES - 81:13 (total of a & b) Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 9
Project name: Alternative History Project
Date of interview: 2007-09-09
Location of interview: Sebokeng, Gauteng
Language of interview: Sotho
Name of Interviewer/s: Dale McKinley & Ahmed Veriava
Name of Interviewee/s: Thulo Ezekiel Motseki
Name of translator: Joseph Matutoane
Name of transcriber: Moses Moremi
Audio file name: AHP_SEB_MotsekiThuloEzekiel_20070909b INTERVIEW WITH THULO EZEKIEL MOTSEKI. START OF AHP_SEB_MotsekiThuloEzekiel_20070909b
Dale McKinley (DM): Okay, we're back on. What kind of job in SAMANCOR did you first start with?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki (TEM): I started working as a labourer, I was working shifts with the braziers, boiling metal and steel.
DM: So you started working there in the late 1970s. How old were you? Was it is in the 80's ... what year did you start working there?
TEM: Late 1986.
DM: Were you given any training, were you given any ... to do that kind of work?
TEM: There was no training, they showed us where to work, gave us instructions and we relied on our colleagues.
Ahmed Veriava (AV): What kind of work were you doing there?
TEM: Pushing trolleys of melted iron and making sure that there were no blockages in the way.
AV: Was that the kind of work that you carried on doing at SAMANCOR?
TEM: There was a strike in 1987, then SAMANCOR fired us. We went to court and then returned to our work in 1988 again. I then went to work in a plant called 'South Plant'. We were working with some chemicals, building a pot where the metal would be poured. DM: And at that time, before and after the strike, what were your wages?
TEM: It was better off than before the strike, though less.
DM: How much were you getting paid?
TEM: Before the strike I earned R300 a week. From South Plant they changed me to working at the offices where I got a little increase. I worked as a messenger.
AV: The strike, was it only about wages or was it also about work conditions?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 1
TEM: The strike was about wages and also harassment in the work environment.
AV: When you say harassment, can you tell us what you mean?
TEM: Unfair dismissal and the disrespectful manner between the management and the workers - you could get chucked out at anytime.
DM: I just want to go back to a more personal question. Your father passed away previously - how many people were in your family, brothers and sisters with your mother?
TEM: Six, then when my father died there were five left.
DM: Your mother and four children?
TFM: Yes.
DM: Are where were you , the youngest, oldest, in the middle somewhere?
TEM: I am the first born.
DM: When you got your first job at the abattoir and then at SAMANCOR, were you taking care of your family or was your mother still working then?
TEM: I was the only one who was working so I was responsible alone.
DM: So you were the sole bread winner?
TFM: Yes.
DM: Ok I just want to ask you ... when you first said that you were using these thinners and pouring the metal into there ... were you provided with any - at that point - any training, any special equipment, any protection, these kinds of things?
TEM: Yes, we were provided with protection.
DM: What kinds of things, can you tell us what kind of training and what you were told ...?
TEM: In the first job they were just instructing us, there was no training.
AV: The union that was organising at SAMANCOR at that time, what union was it?
TEM: NUMSA.
AV: Did you join NUMSA as soon as you started working at SAMANCOR?
TEM: Yes, I joined NUMSA immediately after I was employed at SAMANCOR.
DM: And just in terms of the union did they ... how important was issues of work place safety and so forth, from NUMSA?
TEM: I never saw NUMSA staff coming to look for the safety of workers, there was no attention from the union, but the subscriptions were being deducted every week.
AV: When you say there wasn't any attention from NUMSA in terms of the workers what do you mean?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 2
TEM: As far as I know, I never saw them coming to check our working conditions as our representatives. Maybe there was a meeting (with union reps and management) where workers could complain about their jobs.
AV: In terms of the work that you were doing at the time, did you have complaints about the conditions of your work?
TFM: We were not negotiating directly to the union but negotiating our grievances through the shop stewards, the union was far away.
AV: Sure, but my question is ... outside of the union, you yourself at the time you were doing this work, did you have complaints or did you believe that maybe there was a problem in terms of the conditions that you were working under?
TEM: At that time even if you feel pressure or feel that there is an unsafe environment, it was very hard to face management and complain to the foremen about the conditions of work by yourself.
AV: Okay, I am not asking whether you actually complained but were you happy with the conditions of work?
TEM: I was not happy but there was no choice. Even if the working conditions were not good, we were telling ourselves that at least we have a job, earn a living wage every week or month to support our families/kids.
AV: What were the things that you were unhappy about?
TEM: Work conditions were risky and scary. For example, things like braziers would explode at times and we had nowhere to go and complain, there were no other options.
AV: At this time...I am taking it out of this ... at this time in terms of your own personal life, were you married now?
TEM: Yes I was married but after I became sick from the chemicals at SAMANCOR, my wife decided to leave me.
DM: Okay, you didn't have any children from that first marriage?
TEM: No, we never had children because chemicals caused damage to my fertile system.
DM: Okay, we got to the point when you said you changed jobs and became a messenger in the office there. So, take us from there ... how long did you stay in that job?
TEM: As a messenger, I worked for 4-5 years but I am not sure since the damage from the manganese has caused a loss of memory. From there, I was moved to the laboratory where I was regularly working with chemicals.
DM: Okay. Now, it sounds to me from the timeframe, that you made that move almost at the same time ... if you were there as messenger for 3 or 4 years ... at the same time that the political changes started taking place in the country ... 1993/94, somewhere around there?
TEM: That was the riots period, I can't really remember, those of 1976 I was still young at school, in 1984 I was working at the butchery and in1987 we were on strike in SAMANCOR?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 3
DM: My question was if you can remember ... it's not so much the exact date ... but when the political changes in 1994, was that about the same time that you made the shift to working in the laboratory? Was that about the time?
TFM: Huuum...?
DM: It's okay ... so somewhere in that region.
DM: Do you remember at the time, when Mandela became President and everything .. were there any changes that happened in SAMANCOR, in the factory, in the working situation, the management? Anything that you can remember? .... I'm asking specifically if there were any changes at SAMANCOR, in the job, after 1994?
TEM: I don't remember any changes. Nothing changed.
AV: And during 1994 when everything was happening and in the 1990s when Mandela was released, the ANC un-banned and then democracy ... do you remember how you felt and maybe what you were hoping for in terms of the broader changes that were happening?
TEM: I was thinking that there will be better job opportunities and a better living for all as they promised. But it didn't happen.
DM: When you are say 'job opportunities', what kind of a job were you wanting to do?
TEM: Any job that would give me a better wage, that would enable me to live like other people and meet my needs and those of the family, such as extending my house.
DM: When you started working in the laboratory what was your wage at that point?
TEM: At first I was earning... the grading rates were A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3, B4 and B5. I was on B1. I was earning R300 and something, per week.
AV: When did you start realising that maybe your body was being affected by the chemicals that you were working with?
TEM: It was in 19... I don't remember because I have lost lots of my memory. I realised when I started to have symptoms of epilepsy.
AV: When did you discover you have epilepsy?
DM: Like five years ago, ten years maybe?
TEM: Around 1998.
DM: And when you started working in the laboratory - I was looking at this picture that you provided - what kinds of chemicals were you working with, did you know what these chemicals were?
TEM: A lot of them, I knew some of them, hypo-flouric, HCL ...
DM: A whole range of them. What exactly did you do in the laboratory?
TEM: I was working with samples of these.
DM: What did you do with those samples, did you test them, or what did you do with them?
TEM: We were preparing, mixing and measuring chemicals and putting them in the containers and waiting for analysers to come ...when the analysers came they put them in the samples.
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 4
DM: And when you were doing this job, were you receiving any training for this?
TEM: There was no training but we were put next to someone who was already working there for some time so we can learn from him.
DM: And I am noticing from the picture that you weren't wearing anything, did you have any...at any time that you worked there did you have any kind of safety gear ... I can see that you were wearing gloves that's all?
TFM: We were not given any safety measures, they didn't care about our safety. Nobody was responsible. The management would just let you work whether you are protected or not. But if you demand, say maybe the nose plugs, it is only then that you receive them.
DM: Did you demand them? When you started working here, did you start feeling ill?
TEM: There was chaos. It was only if you were injured/there was an accident, that they would then give some help because they could see that you are getting worse. And even then it was only when you demanded them. There were protection facilities/equipment but they were only used when we got sick We were given safety only when there has been an accident or an injury.
DM: What were the first signs that you felt, physically? What started happening? You said previously it was when you started getting epilepsy ... or was it breathing ... what were the signs?
TEM: It was headaches, chest pains and joints.
DM: So when you started feeling this things at the factory...did the factory have a medical facility or did you go to a doctor?
TFM: There were so many things, including sexual dysfunction that were on top of these things ...
DM: Okay, and the other question ... was there a medical facility at SAMANCOR or did you go to a private doctor?
TEM: In SAMANCOR we were checked every month. a check up and X-rays. The doctors were examining our urine. But after the check-up they would not tell us whether we are sick or not, they didn't tell us what was happening. They would just tell us to go to work, you are okay.
DM: And all during this time that this was happening, just to go back to the question that we asked previously ... was there any support or anything from the union?
TEM: NUMSA was not responsible for anything. Like I said we were to be checked every month by the factory doctor, he took x-rays, our urine and blood samples but NUMSA did not take any part.
AV: When you started feeling sick, you were you still working at SAMANCOR?
TEM: Yes, it started in SAMANCOR.
AV: Did you speak to the doctor and say, look this is what you are feeling?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 5
TEM: We couldn't talk to a doctor, we couldn't ask any questions. The doctor would just come and check us, fill the papers and not tell us about our health problems. Then we would go back to work.
AV: Did you go and see a doctor outside of work?
TEM: When the epilepsy got worse, they did take me to the medical bureau of the SAMANCOR doctors.
AV: Who took you there?
TEM: SAMANCOR.
AV: When you went to the bureau what did they say to you then?
TFM: They made a brain scan and after that the x-ray was taken. They just told me that I have water on my brain and even though I wanted to see the x-rays, they refused to give them to me.
DM: Did they try to explain to you what the reason was why you had the water on the brain or what was the reason for these problems?
The translator: He said the diagnosis was epilepsy.
DM: So their diagnosis was epilepsy?
The translator: Yes.
AV: When you say they wouldn't give you your x-rays, did you ask them for all your medical records and they refused?
TEM: We were not allowed to see any papers. They knew but that was their secret.
AV: How long did you carry on working?
TEM: The epilepsy started in 1998 if I'm not mistaken and then I worked until 2001.
DM: I want to know, during this time that you were seeing the doctor, where there other workers ... that you were talking amongst yourselves ... other workers that were saying the same kinds of things, feeling the same kinds of problems with their bodies?
TEM: There was a time when we will meet and talk among ourselves. Sometimes our departmental management gave us time to talk about our working conditions.
DM: So when you talked with your other comrades, with the other workers, did they have similar kinds of stories and similar kinds of problems?
TEM: Yes we had problems, though different ones. But most of us were affected by manganese and that's why we got retrenched.
DM: Ok before we get to that point about being retrenched I want to ask you ... during this time you said you know, 1998 you got epilepsy and you worked until 2001 and all of these things were happening to your body ... for you, how did that affect your personal life and your family life?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 6
TEM: Life was not good at home. Things were very hard to bear. The epilepsy could strike at any time and my mother could not sleep because she was watching me. During the day, my younger siblings were around me. I always had somebody to watch over me
DM: Now 2001 you were retrenched, is that correct?
TEM: Yes.
DM: What was the reason? Tell us about that retrenchment?
TEM: In 1990, doctors took our blood, urine and nail samples at SAMANCOR to be sent to the laboratory in Cape Town for examination for manganese poisoning. We waited for the report, without knowing our status. Then when we were told that we were retrenched in 2001, we realised that it was because the management knew they had infected us with manganese.
DM: How many people were retrenched with you, when you were retrenched?
TEM: Those that were retrenched with me I would say more than 200.
DM: More than 200?
TFM: Yes.
DM: Of those 200, did you know that most of them had done the tests as well? In other words I'm asking you - did you think everybody was being retrenched because the management had found out that they were now poisoned with manganese?
TEM: Yes, they knew that all of us were affected by manganese. Like I said, that they took our urine samples, nails to check the manganese. (change of tape)
DM: What was the official explanation given for the retrenchments?
TEM: They told us that they were closing down a furnace that was no longer going to work and thus they had no choice but to retrench us.
AV: Were you working directly with that furnace?
TEM: No, I was working with the metals from the furnaces that would come to the lab for testing.
DM: So when you were handed your retrenchment notices, yourself and all of the 200 people ...what did you do?
TEM: By that time it was not nice. We called NUMSA to help us and talk to the management.
AV: Did you at that time, in so far as you already suspected that the reason you were being retrenched was because of your illness, did you ask SAMANCOR for your medical records?
TEM: As I said earlier, no one was allowed to see his/her medical reports at SAMANCOR. Even if the files were packed in the medical room, no one was allowed to go near that office.
AV: And NUMSA at this time, when you went to NUMSA what was their response?
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 7
TEM: No one from NUMSA attended to our grievances. We tried to call them several times and some of them got fed up with us for calling for help.
DM: What kind of package were you given when you were retrenched?
TEM: R90 000 before tax, after tax it was only R70 000.
DM: And you had been working for almost 20 years at SAMANCOR? TFM: I worked in SAMANCOR for 13 years.
AV: Was it calculated in terms of how long you had worked?
TFM: That's what we didn't know, whether it was according to the time we worked. Because if I still remember correctly all of us we were given R90 000 regardless of the years worked.
DM: So Ezekiel just tell us, once you were retrenched from SAMANCOR, how was your physical condition at that point now, 2001?
TEM: Since then nothing is right with my body. I am always sick, I am always in bed. My body is painful all day long.
DM: After you got retrenched, did you go to see an independent doctor or did you go see someone else to maybe see exactly what is going on?
TEM: Yes, I went to lots of different doctors but no doctor has been able to tell me what is really happening or causing damage to my body.
DM: When did start joining with the other retrenched workers of SAMANCOR to try to fight to get back your records, your pensions and all those things?
TEM: We started in 2001.
DM: Almost exactly after you got retrenched you joined the retrenched group?
TEM: Yes.
DM: And just tell us what has happened since that time in your attempts to try and get compensation and get recognition?
TEM: We fought a lot with SAMANCOR. We went to SAMANCOR where we marched and had pickets with placards where we wrote our queries. They called police to fight with us and to stop us from entering their premises. Then we meet with the APF who rescued us.
DM: And it's now 2001, six years since that time ... do you feel as though you have any justice ... have you gotten justice for what's happened?
TEM: There has been some justice, but only from the comrades.
DM: And Ezekiel, in all of these things that have happened to you, your sickness, the retrenchment ... what would you say about the role, or has there been any role ... have you tried to go and seek support from the government or the public at all and how has the response been?
TEM: All of us tried, we even went to the Department of Labour. We tried to seek help at the compensation section, asked them to involve themselves in our struggle, then we confronted Mr Mdladlana as the Minister of Labour. We asked him to intervene on our struggle and he told us Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 8 to stop fighting with SAMANCOR and to go to the workmen's compensation section. He said that was the only help that he can offer us.
DM: With the workmen's compensation, has there been any movement there?
TEM: Truly speaking we never went to the workmen's compensation because our struggle was between us and SAMANCOR. Workmen's compensation didn't have anything to do with our sickness and the chemicals ...
DM: That's what they told you?
The interpreter: No, they told themselves ...
DM: Ezekiel ... I know it's probably a very difficult things in terms of what's happened to you but now, six years on what do you feel about what has happened to you, how do you feel like?
TEM: What I can tell you about these six years is that I live a painful life (breaks down) .
DM: Maybe a bit more of a positive question What would you consider Ezekiel, as something that would be justice for you? You said some good things have happened with the comrades but full justice, what would you consider ... even though I know some of the things cannot be reversed ... but where you are now?
TEM: What I want is that SAMANCOR should compensate us.
DM: Thank you.
AV: Is there anything that would you like to add?
TEM: SAMANCOR should compensate us with the money that we have demanded so that we can support our families and children.
DM: Thanks for your time.
MINUTES - 81:13 (total of a & b) Thulo Ezekiel Motseki: 2007-09-09b: 9
SAHA
Related Objects
Part one of the first interview with Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (September 9, 2007)
SAHA
Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker of Sebokeng, during an interview with Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (2007)
SAHA
Second interview with Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker from Sebokeng, by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava. (May 14, 2008)
Creator: McKinley, Dale
Motseki, Thulo
Veriava, Ahmed
Motseki, Thulo
Veriava, Ahmed
Contributing Institutions: SAHA; MATRIX: The Center for Humane Arts, Letters and Social Sciences Online at Michigan State University
Contributors: Joseph Matutoane (Translator)
Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Moses Moremi (Transcriber)
Biography: Forty-four years old at the time of the interview, Thulo Ezekiel Motseki was born in nearby Evaton and moved to Sebokeng at a young age. His father died when he was ten years old and he and his four siblings survived from his mother’s occasional work. Thulo achieved a Standard 7 education but then went to work in an abattoir to help out the family. In 1986 he got a job at SAMANCOR and supported his entire extended family for the next fifteen years. In the late 1990s he began to get regularly sick as a result of work conditions. His wife left him because he could not father any children due to becoming infertile from his sickness. In 2001 he was retrenched and since then his health has steadily deteriorated to the point where he now is very weak and mostly bedridden. Thulo continues to fight for compensation from his former employers. He lives in a private house with relatives.
Description: Part two of the first interview with Thulo Ezekiel Motseki, a gravely ill retrenched worker, was conducted by Dale McKinley and Ahmed Veriava in Sebokeng in 2007 as part of the South African History Archive's Alternative History Project, titled 'Forgotten Voices in the Present'.
Date: September 9, 2007
Location: Sebokeng, Gauteng, Republic of South Africa
Format: Audio/mp3
Language: Sotho
Rights Management: For educational use only.
Digitizer: SAHA
Source: SAHA collection AL3280
